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Can daemons enslaved in the Daemon Icon be summoned on turn 1?
Well, since Daemons are held in Reseve, they would (apart from the summoning and the +1 if Sacred in Cult-armies) they must abide to the Reserves SpecialRule as stated in the BGB.
If this, my asumtion, is right they cannot come into game play the first turn as it's clearly stated "1 st turn N/A" on p85.
Eventough they don't need to roll, I think they still follow the Reservres/Summoning rules in all the ways that are not mentioned as exceptions in the Armoury.
don't think you can summon demons on turn one... at least it's not in the chart you can find in the CSM codex.
If they are enslaved in a daemon icon then im pretty sure they can. No where does it say the enslaved daemons are subject to deep strike or reserve rules it just states they enter play at the start of the chaos players turn. Ive also had Caluin tell me to use a chosen infiltrating squad with enslaved furies for first turn mayhem.
Id say most definatley yes.
Yeah, but I could've been wrong. It has happened before. Hence why the discussion.Originally Posted by danjones87
My personal thoughts -
The Daemon Icon entry states that the daemons can be summoned at the beginning of the Chaos Player's turn. It does not state any restrictions on what turns it may be, so one could consider that the first turn is a valid choice.
About the reserves part. The Daemon Icon states that the unit is summoned without the need for any roll. One could interpret this as saying that the reserves chart is ignored, since that's basically what you're doing.
Those two points combined is how people believe that you can achieve first turn summonings with the Daemon Icon.
I have been known to be wrong before, however.
Indeed, but they are still summoned. the description on p.18 mention a couple of "rule-over-rides": no scatter & no roll is needed.Originally Posted by Caluin
The way we play is if no exception is mentioned it is not assumed either. Like the Psychic powers of Tzeentch - there is no mentioning of them needing a psychic test, yet we allow them to be (hopefully not) nullified by a Psychic Hood as if they were normal powers and LatD Champs with MoT must make a roll to use them.
There is no written exception from the "Reserves-entering-earliest-turn-two-rule" in the decription, so we do not assume there is such an exception.
There is also the phrasing ""without making a Reserves roll", in the first turn there is no Reserves roll to ignore.
I'm not saying I know this for a fact, it's more of a intestial-feeling...and a chance for a debate
That one's an easy one - Book of Tzeentch simply states that their Sorcs auto-pass any tests taken. They're still taking the tests, they just don't need to roll. This is why the Hood still works against them, but not against a Flamer's Doombolt.Originally Posted by AndusciassusAh, but looking at page 84 and 85 of the BGB, I see no "Earliest to roll is turn 2" rule. I can only find a chart that says "N/A" for the Turn 1 column. That could mean one of two things -Originally Posted by Andusciassus
A) That you may not roll at all....
Any roll that you do make auto fails.
In case "A", you'd be correct in that you can't use the Icon. In case "B", I'd be correct in that you can, since you skip the roll and go straight to the summoning.
Now of course this all gets muddled when you take into account the rules found in the Chaos Codex, but I'm assuming (for the moment at least) that they've been replaced and updated with the BGB rules.Aye, I love good debates. Though I have a feeling I might be losing this one.Originally Posted by Andusciassus
It's been bothering me, but I have to admit that I think they're only available from turn 2 onwards, you just don't have to roll for them.
The wording may be 'enslaved' instead of 'bound' but they still start off in reserves - so I'm going to through my chips in with Andusciassus.
One thing i'm keen on is playing to the spirit of the rules. And i don't think that you're meant to have a turn 1 summon. As there's no scatter, it would just say "These troops may be deployed before the start of the battle within 6" of the daemon icon etc etc".
Basically, rather than some amazing logical A/B - (C + D and a kipper) = answer, I'm chucking common sense into the pot.
Just my two pennies.