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Ok, i'll be to the point, i'm having trouble getting any use out of these against my regular opponents. I've tried to outline what I do, what i'm facing, and what happens to the squads in an attempt to work out where i'm going wrong, and whether someone can suggest a way in which they would be useful to me.
The rest of my fixed list army works quite well, some bikes with a lieut holding an ether lance, infiltrating Autocannons, Las Pred config, Obliterators, and about a third of the value made up of daemons, fury and daemonette squads. Time and time again i've looked at this squad<s> and wondered why I dont outfit them with bolters and plasma guns, either rhinoing them up for mobility, or using them as a stable shooting squad who has the ability to set up where I want them.
My regular opponenets are -
Speed freaks, couple of B-wagons with guys in them, 5 odd buggies, and 3-5, strength 4 orcs squads in trucks <cant remember what these guys are called>
Guard - couple of tanks, 3 squads of s-troopers in transports, deepstriking demo charge melta boys, and up to 4 deepstriking sentinels.
Sisters, 2 large 15 man squads, 2, 10 man seraphim squads, 10 man squad with 4 hv bolters, couple of rhino squads with meltas.
I try to use my guys as an alternate summoning point to the havocs and bikes, but i'd also like them to do something else thats useful. My opponenets all realise one guy chanting with his little flag can quickly turn into 30 guys so they hurt them with extreme vigor. Heres what happens to them....
Squad 5-8, couple of meltas, melta flamer, couple of flamers. rest with bolt pistols and a champion with p-fist.
Alpha mission - Squad lacks range and is assaulted and wiped out by the orcs who can get to them from out of their effective range easily. Same thing happens against the sisters, whose seraphim bounce up and flame em to death with divine guidence, then kill the survivors in CC. Semi ok against the guard as they lack the ability to both shoot and assault them from distance.
Gamma mission Orcs - Same deal as alpha mission, Sisters - Not as bad as alpha, but i'm still hit by deepstriking divinely guided seraphim, if I choose to stay hidden. If i push forward I can expect a hail of divinely guided bolters/ hv bolters. Guard - Deepstriking demo boys with meltas, and some hv flamer equipped sentinels greet me, not alot left after this even if i'm claiming cover from them, though often i can claim an early tank kill before dying.
Omega Orcs - There are none on the table at the start of the battle. When they do come on they can either ignore me if i'm not in their half of the table, or assault me if i'm in their half. Sisters - No decent targets. If I hang back i can expect to have the same as in a gamma mission, if i'm agressive things arent so bad depending on how their reserve rolls go. Guard - no guard on the table at the start of the battle, if i'm forward a tank can drive on and shell me into next week and its usually supported by a squad with plasma weapons, if I hang back, then the squad really does nothing all game as it lacks range.
Ok, so thats what happens with a short range config for the squad, none of these i've found to be particularly successful. So where am i going wrong, or am I just wasting my time trying to make these guys work against these opponenets?
Last edited by M'muth; August 14th, 2006 at 07:13.
1. Marine Squads need at least 8-10 guys to be effective. otherwise they get shot to bits and the remaining 2 or 3 guys don't have enough impact.
2. Even Marines need cover saves, so infiltrate them in cover and keep them there.
3. you need to know what you want to do with them - either assault, firesupport or tank hunting and give them the proper equipment. stick to the role and don't try to make them allround squads. that usually doesn't work.
4. You donlt mention any Marks of Chaos other than you having daemonettes and Furies. If you have infiltraing squads with a mark of Nurgle for example you can rapid fire your stuff and still get full attacks when you take the charge due toi true grit.
Does that answer your question or do you want me to elaborate on any of the points, especially point 3? That one is not as easy as it sounds and might need some thinking about it.
Shut up and play.
the only advice i can give is to decide on a role and tool em up for it so if ya want the squad in cc give em bp +cc your searg a power weapon and strength 2 flamers and flesh the squad outa smuch as possible
if shooting keep the numbers down the searg stripped (in other words cheap asor better yet don't take him) bolters and the 2 meltas or whatever
either case make sure wherever they go they aren't isolated ya want at least some long range firepower covering their a'holes
"take my love, take my land, take me to where i cannot stand, i don't care i'm still free you can't take the sky from meee" ;- firefly
"i'm gonna grant you your greatest wish i'm gonna show you a world without sin" ;- serentiy
"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how i soar" ;- serenity
Some excellent words from the lamenter there... further more
Your opponent shouldn't be deepstriking Seraphims! I went over this with my witch hunting friend, there's nothing in the WI codex to suggest they can do this.
MAy I ask exaclty how many of these squads you're using and exactly what they're kitted out with - you gave us some large variations.
Also, is there no cover to work with?
As an Alpha Legion player, I've had immense success with infiltrating squads. But i always make them work in tandem - never alone as plague points out.
The only squad i throw into 'deep water' are some havocs with 3 plasmas and 1 melta. These guys tend to destroy pretty much anything they come across.
I always deploy into cover - you can never anticipate going first.
I don't always infiltrate 'close' to the enemy. The advantage is deploying last once you know where he is. You can still deploy far away from the opponent and have your squads support each other.
It sounds very much like they gang up on 1 poor squad. By poor, I mean, "Aaw diddums" not "That's a poor squad, I scoff at you pah!"
Do you have an army list posted?
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric
True grit does not allow a unit to shoot rapid fire weapons and then assault. Only slow and purposeful, stable platform, and equivalent units can do that. Additionally, you *DO* lose an attack on the charge with true grit + bolter compared to bolt pistol + ccw.... it's just when you're charged and in further rounds of combat that it will be the same.Originally Posted by Lamenter
To answer the original question, though: As Karmoon and Plague mentioned - the unit cannot be unsupported. There's very few units in the game at all that can march/infiltrate up to an enemy line all on its own and expect to do much. I would either get at least 2 infiltrating squads or don't take any..
Speed Freaks are a dangerous opponent to infiltrate close to at any time, though... With their extreme mobility, you can pretty much count on being assaulted on turn 1 by a bunch of choppa's.
If your Infiltrating squad is primarily to bring in your deamons close to your enemy I would use the following: 8 CSM, MoCU+Icon, Bolters, HB & PG. If you have the points a Champ w/BP & PF would be handy too. In Alpha games this squad is still useful.
If you want an Infiltrating squad which will bring some deamons in, and assault: 8 CSM, Mark of Nurgle+Icon, BP& CCW, 2 Meltaguns, Champ w/BP & PF, Daemonic Visage. In Alpha level games this squad less useful unless your opponent has lots of fast stuff.
The compromise would be Nurgle with Bolters + Champ w/BP & PF, Daemonic Visage. Nurgle guys ain't cheap or quick, but obviously have a good survival rate. Also Nurgle cain't do Deamonettes. MoS Elite Havocs can though.
As Karmoon said, don't Infiltrate too close to be blasted away or hacked to pieces in round 1. You still need support from your own troops.
Hope this helps
I think that's the key here. Sending your squads close to the enemy isn't always the best idea, especially against the armies you're playing against. Speed Freaks are on top of you quick enough anyway; you don't need to voluntarily get closer so they can charge you on the 1st turn. Sisters are very good at short- to meduim-range firepower, and your little infiltrators can't match that. As for IG, an infiltrating squad may get lucky and take out a tank when it gets close, but that's a lot of firepower bearing down on you afterwards.I don't always infiltrate 'close' to the enemy. The advantage is deploying last once you know where he is. You can still deploy far away from the opponent and have your squads support each other.
I think your infiltrators can be very effective, but it comes down to clever tactics. The biggest advantage you have is that you can set up AFTER the enemy does, and even if you don't use infiltrate to get close, you'll use it to better position yourself.
It could be a couple of reasons: you are infiltrating your squads without support, your squads are miss equipped for the job you are sending them to do, or your oponents are starting to or have learned how to counter your playstyle/infiltrating style.Originally Posted by M'muthBikes, lieutentant and autocannons, lascannon preds, oblits. hmm.Originally Posted by M'muth
interesting, could you please post your list? Getting a precise idea of how your army fits together would be very important in giving you accurate advice.I'm assuming tat you are talking about the "short range CSM squads" here.Originally Posted by M'muth
There are two setups I use for short and mid-range CSM assault and fire support.
8-man CSM, MoCU,and Infiltrate
2x Meltaguns, AC with powerfist and BP
These are my primary Assault support squads they have enough numbers to take and give assaults effectively, they can handle ANYTHING in the game(at least have the chance to hurt anything) They shoot 2 very excellent weapons on the move and assault.
Same as above, only with 1x plasmagun and 1x Heavy bolter
This is a mid to long range fire support squad, the plasma and the heavy bolter really work well together to be pretty dern good against any oponent.
6-man CSM squad, MoCU and Infiltrate
2x Plasmaguns no AC
These guys are fire and forget squads, the plasma rapid fire and the fact they will be taking a charge guarantees that they will eventually go poof. keep them minimal and a nuisance.
I would steer clear of flamers on ground pounders, their "average" movement will keep them from effectively using those flamers ever.Speed freaks are one of your worst enemies when it comes to close infiltrationOriginally Posted by M'muth
With the freaks, you NEED to deploy away and infiltrate BACK in CC support of your other elements, their ability to cover great distances and still assault is really annoying and harsh. infiltrating close to these guys is suicide.
You're referring to skarboyz, they are the "meaner, tougher" garden variety of orks.
When assaulted by orks, you want another squad close by to rescue what ever squad just got swarmed, destroy their trukks so they don't have anything to rally to, remember that aside from battlewagons speed freak orks come in packs of 10(much easier to deal with than 20 or even 30) Stay in cover(orks rarely get frags) and try to pound their teeth in to reduce the horrendous number of incoming attacks.I guard are a little more delicate on the counter tactics. Depending on what they are fielding, bassilisk, LRs etc, you want to adjust you tactics.Originally Posted by M'muth
Keep your guys behind/in cover so you get your cover saves, The only thing that should be in LOS of these bad nasties are either: Oblits since they will get their normal save versus battlecannon shots, you start them behind cover and then move them out to shoot your Lascannons, or Tank hunting havocs in cover(IN COVER) it would be VERY unlucky if the BC shot actually killed more than a couple of guys in cover and the return volley should either disable or destroy the vehicle.
As far as the normal troopers, well, as above, assault them just don't send one squad of 8 or so into 30 guardsmen, your marines will die, a slow, and painful death of attrition which you cannot afford.Sounds like you need to learn the duck and cover tactic. Your summoning squads will of course become really big bulls eyes. put them behind cover within 20''Originally Posted by M'muth
remember daemons will be able to move and assault after summoned, so throw the squad somewhere reasonably safe, pop the daemons out and then support the daemons with your CSMs.
You should have summoning icons in EVERY squad that can do so, if you are going to be summoning, having one or two just won't cut it, its too easy to stuff the summon.
Its the reason why I hate bikes(too few and people try to spam up the middle and bomb) I just kill them first turn every game. Raptos are so incredibly awesome for this, their fast movement combined with a summoning icon = putting daemons right where you need them not where the oponent can easily kill them.When you cannot infiltrate, and sometimes when you CAN infiltrate, these guys will want to play supporting(SUPPORTING) roles to your ranged elements. Make them come to you and DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA, then ASSAULT the remnants.Originally Posted by M'muth
one more thing about SOB, keep track of their faith points. many players as oponents don't, that's a really big mistake, keep the game honest and above board. Faith points are great but they have this nasty tendency to run out end-game and you MOP up with your squads then.If this guy is sending his saraphim in piece mail, AND its in flamer range, you should be mopping them off the board the very turn they come in.Originally Posted by M'muth
It is starting to sound like you do not support your squads very well. No individual element is in fact an individual, it is a part of your larger force and needs to be used accordingly.
Putting parts of your force in unsupported positions is giving your oponent VPs by the handfull.
Again, here infiltrating closer is not always the best choice, infiltrate is an EXCELLENT tool that not only allows you to put your guys out of your deployment zone, but even better and stronger, you deploy LAST! This is such a HUGE advantage, there is a reason normal deployment rules goes heavy, troops, elites, HQ then fast attack. Forcing you to commit your "beefy" units first so your oponent can react accordingly to your force.see above about the unsupported elements of your force. Especially when facing speed freaks, you should sit tight and wait for them to show up and blast them when they are in. being in their area guarantees that if a truk shows up, you're boned.Originally Posted by M'muthsisters are very fragile piece mail. but, remember that the balance of their force can arrive any turn, so having one or two squads doing all the work will not work. commit your force or sit back.Originally Posted by M'muthwhich is why its always important to always expect the worst. put your guys in cover, hop them between cover points don't allow your oponent chances to blast you for free points.Originally Posted by M'muth
Your short range infiltrating squads should not be worrying about this, other elements, mainly your long range elements should be providing long range fire support to allow your closer elements to advance in peace. Without this supporting element, your oponent will simply ignore or avoid any dakka you have an blast you to smitherines.You haven't really mentioned any builds of your short range squads.Originally Posted by M'muth
the 2x melta squad I gave above looks like it might fit your aggressive playstyle the best, they can hunt tanks, power armor and whatnot. sisters will blow some faith points to avoid dwindling their numbers from it, bleed the faith points dry and then POUND THEM!
Again, I suggest you post your actual list so we can critique it and give you advice on how best to equip your close range elements.
I hope this helps.
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WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!
Yeah, reading comprehension is good... reading quickly and missing the words "take the" make a big difference :pOriginally Posted by Lost Nemesis