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4 chaos marines
1 chaos marine champion
mark of undivided (for the morale reroll and furies)
The idea is you get 2-4 of these very cheap units and use them for anti tank/armored troops and summon the furies when melee approaches.
Much cheaper then havocs and with the reroll and the champ morall failure is low, plus each unit is under 130 points.
What is everyones thoughts on the matter?
Loyalists use the 5-man squad quite a lot.
I can see their uses, but here's the deal, you're taking a morale to run at 2 wounds, you're under half at 3. non scoring unit then. And, it can't stand up to an assault.
A havoc squad can have the same arguements made against it, but it has BULK firepower on its side, and should never have less than even number of meat-shields to heavy/special weapons on them.(so, 8 strong for 4 weapons)
I like to have my CSM squads able to move and take objectives when I need them to do so, AND get in the mix to fight. Not that the above squad can't work, I just think there are better ways to spend the points. The squad above infiltrates and just sits there. Furies are indeed a nice option but they do not have the same staying power that marines have.
I think the best use for said squad is to mix them in as a fire-support element in your army if you want, but should not be the primary CSM outfit.
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i agree with the yak, you should think about using both the five man lascannon squad and havocs is more effective than just either or.
the cool thing with the 5 man lascannon squad is that its cheap(the lascannon is only 15pt for a tactical squad) and you can give them tank hunters, making for a nice fire support squad that can really pack a punch. however, i wouldn't take the plasma, since the squads purpose should be to take out vehicals.
however, like the yak said, i highly advice you don't make these squads the backbone of your armie. thats what normal chaos marines squads are for. i would suggest you take a maximum of two of these squads. also, they are not a subsitute for havoc squads, they just add a little more anti tank power to your arsinal, and you really should utilize them alongside havocs.
havocs are a totally different breed. with the most popular configeration, you can take 4 autocannons and tank hunters. this gives you 8 str X(str X against vehicals) shots per turn. they are both effective against most infantry and vehicals and are a very good option for any chaos marine army.
Last edited by Lost Nemesis; August 21st, 2006 at 22:12.
How many spacemarines does it take to turn on a lascannon?
This wonderful topic rears it's ugly head again. Alex and The Yak nail it on the head.
CSMs are to be used to their maximum potential, not minimum choiced to get more shiny things. Alex has already said this, but I think that this needs reiterating. We are blessed that our basic troop choice is arguable our strongest unit in the game.
I've heard a theory that uses 2-3 proper squads, and then 3-4 of these five man las cannon squads infiltrated around the battle field, giving total lascannon coverage. I've never tested it though. I imagine, that it's situational though. Not part of a balanced army. Against any resemblance of a horde army, you may as well give VPs to your opponent before you start.
Snarl, if you search back a bit you'll find an excellent thread where this is discussed in quite some depth.
I like the idea but I don't think that they are too practical.
the 5 man squad with heavy weapon combo is quite lethal. You can fill 6 troop slots with them and only chew up about 540 pts. In a 1500 pt game that leaves you with nearly 1000 pts to play with and you already have 30 marines, 6 lacannons on the board and 24 bolters (for hordes).
They can get easily wiped out in H2H, but you want that. The last thing you want is one of those units getting wiped out in your assault phase.
That all said, its a combo that I personally hate.
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I've actually tried it, they do pretty well against any army but Eldar. Tankhunting in a Eldar army is just silly. But with the rest, it is actually practical sense you can roll one squad at a time, and when a tank pops move on to the next one. Still the same odds with havoc squad, except more targets that spread shots out and more places to infiltrate.
Well despite what others think I quite like it, with MoCU I dont know why theyak is terrified of morale. Besides 2 5 man squads are just as resilient to morale as a 10 man squad.
MEQ's are never to be considered fragile, if someone empties a lot of firepower into your squad then odds are you will still have about 2 men left. Now then those 2 men get to be the icon and the lascannon, the squad is still serving its purpose and if they want to kill it they will have to start overkilling. Its not that intimidating that it will attract a lot of firepower anyway, especially if it infiltrates into cover.
It is great since it fulfills multiple roles, whilst it may not be a scoring unit (you have other units for that, namely the daemons it summons) and it packs quite a punch by killing expensive tanks, threatening an armies rear on some occasions and bringing daemons into a good location.
Should it have bolters or BP/CCW?
I like the squad snarl, good work.
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If you are going for firepower, go with at least a couple of units of havocs. 8 marines in each, at least one bolter guy for every heavy weapon. They'll blow all kinds of nasties apart, especially with a skill like Tank Hunters.
What daemons though? if you use 6 5 man squads with lascannons, then all you have left is slots from the fast attack. Meaning the furies he mentioned would be the one of the only daemon bringable. You use up troop slots on other daemons, and you're down slots for the gimp units. (Word Bearers excluded)
I admit using a lot of those squads works pretty good as part of a shooty force, but once you face a decent CC army you're going to feel the weakness of the configuration. Play against Dark Eldar, orks with trukkas/speed freaks, World Eaters, 'podding marine CC army. . . ect, and you're gonna get creamed.
My point is in moderation it can be a valid tactic, but used heavily you unbalance your army. This can be amazing or pathetic depending on who you're facing. I myself tend avoid inbalanced armies, and find the setup wastfull, but suit yourself if you choose to do it, I have no issues with explioting your weaknesses in battle.
This topic comes up from time to time, it's one of those interesting topics where some people like it, some do not, & it's hard to convince people to change sides. Most of the time you just agree to disagree. . . do what you like; it's not utter foly, otherwise there would be a clear consensus on the matter. I of course am on the neigh croud on this issue though.
Last edited by JORMAGI; August 22nd, 2006 at 22:31.
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Spot on. And while Furies are excellent units, they're by no means the only CC option that you should have.Originally Posted by JORMAGI
They are good squads, 5 man las cannon, infiltrate (for alpha legion) and tank hunters.. lots of S10 shots against vehicles, BUT troop slots can be used better. If you're using your troop slots for this, what are you using your other slots for?
Up it to a 6 man squad, drop the AC, plasma gun and lascannon - and now i'm interested. You have a squad that can hold on a bit, AND can perform a few functions over than a living gun.