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My beef with the CSM codex are the Chosens, Greater Daemons, and all Fast Attack options. I think when you make a codex all options have to be viable, which just not the case with Raptors and Chosen. Chosen are more expensive and are limited. Raptors cost to much to have them jumping around, trip and killing themselves in a Difficult Terrian test. The Greater Daemons just stink and hold no practical use, not even the Bloodthrister now, given the mad stats that Avatar has plus it is still cheaper point wise. We need a balance list. WE need is a good codex errata, a make over. That is until 2008 when we get our new codex.
Plus what do you think of the codex prediction out put? Do you think we will really get a codex for each god?
So yeah, dispute what Ive said with any reason you got, like unit configurations, tactics, etc. And then throw down your own beef.
I don't know anything about the new codex, to be honest. I really like the chaos how they are now, though, but it'd be nice to have a new codex. About getting a codex for every god, idk. I'm guessing it'll be similar to the Space Marines. There will be the main codex, and then smaller one's for each god. That's my guess, if the rumor of each god getting their own codex is true.Plus what do you think of the codex prediction out put? Do you think we will really get a codex for each god?
Personally, I woudln't want that to happen. I rather buy it, and have it all in one codex then have to buy the regular codex, and then buy each god codex. (Because I like every legion, and like to mix up what I play).
In all honesty, I really don't have any 'beef' or complaints about the chaos codex as it is. I'm perfectly fine with how it is right now.Chosen are expensive, but they can be EXTREMELY powerful. They are a bad idea in small games, but in larger games I think they're very fun to use.My beef with the CSM codex are the Chosens, Greater Daemons, and all Fast Attack options. I think when you make a codex all options have to be viable, which just not the case with Raptors and Chosen. Chosen are more expensive and are limited. Raptors cost to much to have them jumping around, trip and killing themselves in a Difficult Terrian test. The Greater Daemons just stink and hold no practical use, not even the Bloodthrister now, given the mad stats that Avatar has plus it is still cheaper point wise.
Raptors are expensive, but not too much. I like them. Hit and Run helps, and with an AC they can be pretty powerful in close combat. I think they're pretty well balanced. They're definitly not super powerful, but I wouldn't say that they are underpowered.
I do agree with you on Greater Daemons though. They are fun and fluffy to use, but not the most effective game-wise, when compared to a chaos lord or lt.
Okay heres my counter arguement- I agree w/ all cept chosen. I play Nurgle and my termie lord+ his 6 termie chosen ret= priceless. So far they've owned- 4 Librarians, 4 Cahppy, around 55 marines, 20 CSM, hordes of nids, plenty of ork vehicles, and a bunch of tanks. To me they are perfect. Raptors- dont take 'em, dont care bout 'em. Greater deamons- waste of points, and money/time to paint.
True, termies for nurgle are very nice. Most are with the god marks but that's expensive. Termies more often than not, do not make the pts back.
As for the raptors, yeah they get the additional kicks but they dont make it back, they cost alot for a combat unit. Where SM get to have as many as they want, they got numbers. Numbers win. Skills only carry you so far.
Yes, you're right, Raptors and Terminators don't always make their points back, but who says they have to to be effective?
They can serve as other purposes in the army. For example, for terminators, they can be excellent at soaking up shots. An example with Raptors would be a harrasment unit, or maybe used to take quarters or tie up heavy weapon squads using their speed.
I agree with the Chosen but not the Raptors.
Being a long time Night ords player, I love Raptors.
Its safe to say that they've made their points back less than half the time I've used them, but their tactical effectiveness is through the roof. Ever use them in CoD with 3x flamers? Esiest way to clear out a building. Or maybe popping a Leman Russ first turn. Sure, a 300 point unit took out a 160 point tank but what that tank can do to your army is frightening. Their speed for claiming objectives or Recons missions, their ability to take 3x special weapons, and thier hit and run tactics.
The effecitveness of Raptors should not be soley based on their number of kills, it should be based on how many lives they save by taking out key targets and how many VPs they gain by taking objectives.
I still completly maintain that Khorne possessed with daemonic flight are vastly superior to raptors, also with my army based on the world eaters i cannot field raptors. I have to say that terminators give a good strong characterful unit that will worry most opponents in larger games. GW diluted the power of terminator armour in 3rd ed though (hands all of those who remember the time when terminator armour was 2+ on 2d6 lol)
Equipped with the latest XV25 Stealth Armour these troops are the 'love wolves' of the Tau army, operating independently of other formations.
This cock up is bought to you by GW Australia.
Inquisitor Hause and Black Katalys more or less hit it on the head me thinks.
Chosen are fantastic if you know when and where to use them and not get carried away.
Jump units, which are vital to so many other armies are NOT vital to Chaos. So when we do get to use them, it gives us even more tactical abilities.
Greater daemons - not really sure. i see great potential and it's nice to have a Monstrous model which can't be instakilled (by Strength alone anyway).
The Giant Mantis swears by greater daemon HQs. The blood thirster is massively expensive, but the rest of them are reasonable enough a cost to fit into a 1500 army i think.
I do agree that our fast attack options are lacking though. Both bikes and raptors are hideously expensive, and i think they should be reduced slightly.
As for codexes, i think they'll either do us like SMurfs, or one for the cult legions, and one for non cult legions (prob. including LaTD)
MAJOR EDIT, but didn't want to double post:
Although the purists amonst you might sneer. I think that a vital fast attack option is actually in the LaTD armies. Chaos Fidos are cheap and great. But better than that, mutants with Tzeentchian gifts!
They're a regular troop choice, but they sure as hell behave like a fast attack unit. At only 12ish points per model i think they're a bargain as you can load on the bodies, have two hidden fists, and smash anything in your way or claim objectives as you see fit .
Plus.. they're not actually affiliated with Tzeentch in anyway, so you can still field them with a Nurgle HQ or what not.
I know King Comrade might try and lynch me for suggesting giving some gifts to basic mutants, but in this case, i think there's definitely merit.
Last edited by Karmoon; October 9th, 2006 at 12:10.
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric
I'm lukewarm on Raptors. On the one hand I really wish they were four or five points cheaper, but on the other hand it wouldn't be worth it if they lost either Hit & Run or Daemonic Visage. I think the fact that they're restricted for most armies balances them out right there, and Night Lords should have them cheaper as they lose out on almost everything Daemonic. I would give up Furies for cheaper Raptors.
Chosen are kind of strange as they are. Lots of choices but you have to theme them rigorously to be effective. Frankly, I'd be happy to see Chosen replaced with a straightforward Terminator selection.
As for the revision I suspect that GW will do what they did in Fantasy; specifically, that they will make a Big Four Chaos Gods codex, a Chaos Undivided codex and maybe a LatD mini-codex since that seems popular. It really depends on how much emphasis they want to keep on the Horus Heresy story.
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
I love raptors, they have to be used correctly though to make there points back.
Chosen are odd though.
In termie armour, they arent bad, IMHO better than imperial termies, striking first with power weapons, and having the ability to upgrade both close combat weapon and ranged weapon.
Chosen in power armour IMO stink. You can upgrade them to be al aspiring champions, but this is an ordanace target. They cost far too much for the +1LD they get.
My ideas for changes would be to give all chosen a free veteran skill at the current cost. Id like to see termies with the options to swap both ranged weapons to become a CC varation, somthing like swapping there combi bolter for a ccw for no extra cost, dual lightening claws at +15 points and so on.