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What is the main purpose of a havoc squad? Tank popping? I notice that most people on this board preach the use of an autocannon versus using a lascannon because of the large price difference. Basically 2 Lascannons cost nearly as much as 4 Autocannons. Now, when I crunch the numbers I see that on average the 4 autocannons will do more damage and cause more wounds against MEQs, but on T6 creatures or above like Tyranids, 2 lascannons are twice as effective since most of the high T creatures will have a 2+ save... i'm using a carnifex as the example model. If you consider a 3+ save the numbers come a lot closer, with only decimals being the difference.
At any rate, I think looked at how well Autocannons and Lascannons do against armoured vehicles, discounting tank hunters. It seems to me that Autocannons only perform moderately well against skimmers and armor value at 12 or lower. I guess when i look at the numbers again I will add in tank hunters, but pretty much you can just scale the AV up by 1. On average a Havoc squad with 4 AC will score 4 hits, and then require a 5+ to even glance the armour. So, my question is... how many high AV tanks do you run across? Do you use havocs for light armour and infantry, and obliterators for heavy armor? I'm just trying to find the best mix here so as not to tailor my list to do well only against skimmers or only well against T6 creatures and AV 14 tanks. It certainly is interesting to crunch the numbers in excel and see the results though... I find it to be an invaluable tool in deciding what value maximizes my return.
Havocs are... special. They're not like Loyalist Devestator squads for two reasons. The first is Autocannons. The second is assault weaponry.
Havocs should be used to fill in anything lacking in your army. Autocannons are wonderful for this, as they're good against most vehicles and most armies. Even against MEQs they can cause considerable damage. The only thing they really fail at are 1) High save/toughness creatures, such as Wraithlords and Carnifexes, and 2) AV14 vehicles.
Against AV14 vehicles, you should have Meltaguns in your assault squads. Obliterators are also good for this.
Against the high toughness/save MCs, you should have Plasma weaponry or Powerfisted Champions.
However, if you lack Plasma, you could field an Infiltrating squad of Havocs with 4x Plasmas. Burn Carnifex, burn!
I know most people tend to think Lascannons are too expensive for Havocs, but I disagree. I only disagree because one of my three major opponents is IG and takes 2-4 tanks per game ranging from Chimeras to Leman Russ and Demolishers. He takes a Leman and a Demolisher in most games, and a Basilisk as well. Then has a Chimera and/or a squad of Sentinels.
Now - Autocannons are worth their weight in Gold versus: the Basilisk, the Chimeras and the Sentinels...but have a tough time vs the other two.
However, the look on my friend's face when I popped his Demolisher on turn 2 with a Tank-Hunting AC squad was absolutely priceless. Rolling a 6 to glance, and then a 6 on the table is what dreams are made of.
So I have 3 Havocs - and take 8 Autocannons/3-4 Lascannons. Plus Obliterators which can pick up the slack for either group. When I go to my local events more often and start wanting more S7(8vs vehicle) shots as opposed to the Lascannons - I will switch them out. But as of right now, the Lascannons help me out versus Godzillas and Armor Guard, so I'm keeping them around. My third main opponent plays Eldar, and so that's when I really see my ACs going to town.
I load up 4 Plasma Guns in my troops choices, and 2 meltaguns.
What I am short on atm is CC.
Short of it though - Havocs kick a lot of posterior.
"Long live the Emperor!"
- a patient Chaos God
An autocannon can glance a skimmer - TWICE
The sheer amount of shots generated by the autocannon makes up for pretty much any scenario. As eclipse said even AV14 isn't beyond the autocannon's reach (apart from liths).
Consider also that Eldar players will force you to roll two dice and pick the lowest score.
Lascannon havocs are great if that's what you really want to spend the points on, but las cannons in fire support squad are more effective, mainly because they're less than half the price.
As mentioned by Caluin, havoc squads can perform other functions too. A havoc squad with 4 flamers and a powerfist champ is a daunting prospect in a city fight assault.
I'd trust autocannons in pretty much any situation, although you get the best of them by shooting them at their designed prey. If there's nothing else around though, then feel free to open fire on a squad of marines.
I also have obliterators and las cannon support squads which naturally, go for the tougher stuff.
If i'm feeling nasty or suicidal, i'll field the infiltrating tank hunting plasma havocs, and watch the fire works.
Lascannon support squads? Do you mean a second group of havocs?
Anyway the way I see ACs is that they only outshine Lascannons versus skimmers. Im just trying to make a balanced army list, and I'm not sure i need lascannon havocs if i have 3 obliterators. The key is to make the list so it can do well against Skimmers, High T creatures, Hoards, and High AV. To me that sounds like 1 Lascannon Havoc squad, 1 AC squad, and a defiler. Thats an awful lot of points though!
Relying on Oblits for your lascannon shots is good, they're tough, they can swap out weapons when they need, and they MOVE AND SHOOT! An enemy can avoid LOS from your havocs if he's clever, but oblits are a much harder unit to evade because of this.
I run a squad of 3 oblits and 2 squads of AC havocs. Splash in meltas, and plasma/HB in the rest of the army and its a very balanced force.
As for the above config, I would take the lascannon squad as tank hunting rocket launchers instead, you're getting the same strength vs vehicles and it will save you points.
It IS a lot of points, so drop the defiler I don't see any reason to take 3 heavy choices in armies under 2000pts, it eats up points, and rarely makes a really balanced force.
hope this helps.
W/D/L Eleventy trillion billion/NONE/ NONE - I am STILL rulezor!
WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!
The main difference that I've noticed for Havocs is versatiity. You could go cheaper and make a squad of Havocs with MLs and Tank Hunter. Basically makes then Lascannons versus vehicles, and this is what I did for a battle.
But the problem with that is - when there's no vehicles on the table, and you're staring at 4-5 monstrous creatures - all with 2+ saves, a ML just doesn't cut it. Plasma Guns - yes, but they pop, and at best shoot at 24", those monstrous creatures can generally carry 36" assault weapons and take your plasma gun squad to school. So without Lascannons, the MCs do not fear you ranged...they only fear the plasma at 24", and even then not so much...they take a few wounds, kill all the plasma - threat neutralized. ACs are the best "good against everything, great against somethings" weapon, but against 2+ save T6 creatures, it's just "o-k". Oblits carry MC killers, but 3 guns isn't enough when you go up against 4-5 MCs. If I can take down 1-2 MCs per turn using all of my firepower, I'm happy. If I can get into CC with them with Daemonettes, well perfect - but not everyone uses Daemonettes, or CAN for that matter...so AP2 weapons are all you have.
I make my army to be good against anything, but I have 3 major opponents who I play every week 2 or 3 times. They are: IG with tons of tanks, Nids with tons of MCs, and Eldar with lots of Skimmers and an Avatar. Autocannons are wonderful agaisnt all three armies, but they lack the power to get rid of all threats. Plasma Guns make up for a lot of this, but they lack the range to become the major threat to them - even infiltrating, because a smart player will tie up that plasma gun squad on turn 1 or two - neutralizing their fire. If you're up against 1 or 2 heavy bastages - whether they be tanks, MCs or Skimmers - then you'll be fine, but when the opponents starts pumping them out like candy, you will run into a wall with only ACs in my honest opinion.
The Fire support squads are - instead of taking Lascannons in Havoc squads - take them one at a time in small troops squads because they cost less. Tons of merit in that suggestion, and one I still have to toy with to get the right balance of what I want - and what I need.
Right now I'm starting to wish I had more than 6 troop spots (guess I now know why people like Word Bearers, haha)
"Long live the Emperor!"
- a patient Chaos God
I'm still confused here. Do you mean add 1 or 2 Lascannons to each havoc squad, or do you mean a havoc squad with just one lascannon. If it is the latter that would tie up all of your heavy support options. As far as I am aware, those are your only units that can take the Lascannon outside of the Chosen.
So, how would a HS be if I took 1 Lascannon squad and 1 AC squad... given that i'll be fighting Nids and SM the most. I really don't like their lack of mobility since my army is Slaanesh based and is supposed to be very assaulty. I'd prefer to take 1 Predator or Defiler and only 1 group of Havocs but that might not be feasible. Right now I plan on using 3 Oblits and 6 Raptors... 3 with meltas... to pop the big guys. I think Meltas on a raptor squad would be pretty good for downing Carnifexes and tanks. I've never used raptors though so I'm not sure how they will perform... i plan on infiltrating them, flighting over to a fex popping off a few shots, then assaulting it so i can do hit and run. Then again, this might kill the darn thing since my squad will have a hidden power fist and I couldn't use the hit and run... suggestions on that course of action?
Heh heh, we're blessed with the best troop choice in the game. :yes:
If you're very very carefull with raptors, you could have a dedicated squad of 5 with 3 meltas or plasmas. They can zip around and really put the smack down on some rogue carni'.
But infiltrated fire support squads are very good. A generally like a lascannon and a plasma gun and a champ and tank hunters if i can afford it.
At the end of the day, it's what works for you, but i must admit, when it comes to carnis, it's, as The Yak would say - 'powerfist surround and pound'.
A swift darkblade lord is also a very good option to finish off a wounded 'fex.
JUST stay alert to make sure it isn't a CC fex. If it is, then as it's running about you can avoid it in a kind of comedy Charlie Chaplain fashion. Just don't get depressed
Yeah, the CC Fexes can have upwards of 9 attacks on the charge. With 4+s to hit and 2+s to wound, it will eat you in one bite.
My bro plays with Elite Fexes (115pts or lower) and they are the kind that my Lord likes to jump into.
A 6-8 man troop choice with a Las and Plasma + Power Fist is pretty well-rounded, whereas a 5-man Lascannon only troop choice is cheaper and does only one thing. Both are valuable in my opinion - depending where they deploy/infiltrate. Just remember to space them out!! My opponents almost never get 2 models under a blast marker...and usually 2-3 under an Ordnance...never more. That helps out a lot for me anyway, as all my opponents use extensive template shots. A lascannon on his own basically treats the guys around him as extra wounds to allow him to complete his objective...that's how I think of it anyway, so if you're going to make a Lascannon only squad, don't put anymore points into it except the gun.
"Long live the Emperor!"
- a patient Chaos God