Problems with Tzeentch Daemons?? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
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    Problems with Tzeentch Daemons??

    I want to hear more from others on this issue, but I am seeing some conceptual issues with the Tzeentch daemons. I am left wondering how useful they are, if ever?

    Flamers:

    Pro: Hail of fire
    Con: Short range??????

    A full unit can put out some amazing shot volume which is potentially rather powerful. However, operating in smaller groupings (or perhaps event single units) they suffer from effective range issues. Meaning, if they are 18 inches from a unit, it can move 6 and rapid fire them. This leads me to believe that a flamer unit would operate best limiting the number of enemy within range and forcing them to have only a small portion able to get within 12 (smaller still when we consider that those who were on the fringe of 18 are the ones who will be taking the casualties). This tactic would be similar to some of the micro managing behavior that Tau do on a Fish of Fury attack. Yet, with a real game such ideal situations rarely appear and the unit will often face anti-infantry fire. I am left wondering, at over 20 points a piece, is their invul saves and multiple wounds enough to protect them from being quickly taken out of the game after limited production? Other daemons can at least hide in CC where they do well, but the flamers have to run around naked taking and giving fire. 25% shooting turning into instability compounds the issue. How long can that last?????

    Horrors:

    Pro: Cheaper than flamers...
    Con: Way too short range.

    Not much I can say about these. Seems the only way they are taken is to more cheaply add wounds to a flamer unit. At 12 inch range and poor weapon damage these guys seem built to be kinda bad.

    Screamers:

    Pro: Fast attack choice for Thousand sons
    Con: Hit and run???????

    This one is as much a rules clarification as a point. The 4th edition rules replace all old rules. Yet, their hit and run rule is unique amoung hit and run variations. Do they use the new rule or the old one?????? If the old one, they are simply terrible. If the new one, they may have a place.

    Ruthlessness is the mercy of the wise.

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  3. #2
    Member Memnoch Eclipse's Avatar
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    I can only comment that in my codex - the only difference between Raptors H&R rule versus Screamers H&R is that under the Raptors it says they can choose to use the ability, but the Screamers have to. To be effective the Screamers should be teamed up with another unit who does not have the rule. Then the Screamers will fall back and then re-assault an enemy that wasn't permitted to move away. Tsons are great for tying up an enemy like that. The Furious Charge + H&R combo can be really nice if you can convince that enemy unit to stay in one spot!

    The whole point behind them is that they do "fly-bys" and never actually stop, kinda like a jet. That's why they force them to use the H&R ability.

    As for the Horrors - they seem incredibly terrible.
    Flamers - should begin the game within 18" of the opponent if done right, and therefore should get the bang for their buck right away...I see the merit in these guys for sure. (Too bad they only have 3BS though, /sigh I'm spoiled by marines...)

    I don't use Daemons at all in my armies though, I don't have much love for any of them, even though I know Daemonettes are sweet...it's not my style. I used to use Flamers and Screamers but ditched the game a year ago, and never got back into them when I picked the game back up after the hiatus.

    -Eclipse
    "Long live the Emperor!"
    - a patient Chaos God

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    keeping it ptailstyle P-Tail's Avatar
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    i agree with the uselessness of horrors except as shields for the flamers, but when you use the words "rapid fire" i wonder if you have the rules right. an infantry move plus their full weapons range gives them a 24" effective range. far better than rapid firing, they wield a half range assualt heavy bolter.

    i think this combined with the fact that they will be summoned close as eclipse said, they dont have ranger problems. if you have a couple horrors in there, or even if you dont, the enemy will have to put in a lot of firepower to severe that units efficiency, and if they do that, well they are probably messing up their target priority.

    the confusion regarding the different hit and run rules on screamers, yeah, thats frustrating.

  5. #4
    Monkey Pirate Greenbeard The Ex-pirate's Avatar
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    Use the rules from the codex for screamer, if i remember correctly theres nothing in the ettra telling you to replace it. Flammers are among the most devastating units you can get for 20 odd points. Effectively an assault heavy bolter at 1/2 range spend 230 points and your dishing out 30 shots a turn. Even with bs 3 you should still hit at least 15 times out of that. and from that wound a go 7 or 8. To top it all off most armies won't even get a save against them! Flammers work wonders on ork mobs, i pop two squads in blast the daylights out of the mob, then maybe lose 3 to shooting before i move to the next one. I mean for under 500 points you can be dishing out 60 shots a turn thats pretty effective against pretty much everything. Horrors are about as useful as a lighter underwater.
    Rheagar fought nobly
    Rheagar fought valiantly
    Rheagar fought honorably
    And Rheagar died.

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    I agree that the flamers can do some big hurt. Yes, the flamers have effective range of 24in but my concern was that to have shot they have t have been 18 of their target meaning that target can now move 6 and rapid fire. This is not a BIG problem if you can wipe out targets, but if you can't I just ponder how survivable these can be? Anyone ever have one last to score?

    As for the screamers, I don't think they get the new rule as they don't have the formal "hit and run" title. Rather they have some aweful other thing that is title-less. I was just hoping some arcane FAQ would magically change that. As it stands it is a rather terrible unit.
    Ruthlessness is the mercy of the wise.

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    Senior Member JORMAGI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by studentochaos View Post
    I agree that the flamers can do some big hurt. Yes, the flamers have effective range of 24in but my concern was that to have shot they have t have been 18 of their target meaning that target can now move 6 and rapid fire. This is not a BIG problem if you can wipe out targets, but if you can't I just ponder how survivable these can be? Anyone ever have one last to score?
    I don't have a problem with flamers taking return fire. Sure the enemy may just do that, advance and rapid fire. But don't underestimate the flamers durability: 2 wounds and an daemonic invunerable save is not to be laughed at.

    They will become a priority target for your opponent, but they it will take a good amount of fire before they can be wiped out. The big concern is not rapid fire but assaults wich will stop the doom-bolt doom.

    Nothing in the game is "safe" the point to the game is killing the enemy so it's likely that they're going down. but it's just as likely that the marine squad that just summoned them are going to bite it too.

    Oh and I'm back by the way. . . don't have much time at the moment, but you will be seeing more of me soon.
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    Librarian from Hell Andusciassus's Avatar
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    Nice to see you back JORMAGI.

    I feel I must say something about the Screamers. No good you say? How about a cruel initiative and high strength attacks? Great movement and low cost should be added to that.
    It took me ages to field a squad of them, I admit. On paper they seem pretty crappy - I bought a unit since I had nothing much left to buy for my Thousand Sons and since the first time I fielded them - I'm in love.
    They move fast and hit hard - their initiative lets them attack IC's and even kill them. If not killing them at least wounding them and that's often quite a few VPs alone.

    I use them for tank busting too. Once they get the rear armour of my opponents tanks and tranports - the havoc begins. Nobody expects them to be so good at it.

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    I was kind of waiting for you to weigh in on this Andusciassus.

    I really want to like the screamers. They are reasonably priced and fill a void in the TS list so I was hoping someone had an idea to make them work.

    To Jormagi: Well actually my whole thread is about me doubting how good 2 wounds and a 5++ invul are. At T 3 I don't see it as being much good so I posted this to see about how people found they ran in actual games. Your right it isn't like these daemons are IG, but for 23 points each I want more than a one shot BS 3 heavy bolter.
    Ruthlessness is the mercy of the wise.

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    Senior Member destp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by studentochaos View Post
    I am left wondering, at over 20 points a piece, is their invul saves and multiple wounds enough to protect them from being quickly taken out of the game after limited production? Other daemons can at least hide in CC where they do well, but the flamers have to run around naked taking and giving fire. 25% shooting turning into instability compounds the issue. How long can that last?????
    To echo JORMAGI, amazingly well. I've never really lost more then 2-3 to shooting. 18 wounds for a unit of 9 will last a long time no matter what. Even in combat with a hand-to-hand specialised unit they tend to last 2-3 turns (though they don't do much else). I've tend not to have great luck with their offensive capability against marines, but their ability to take out a unit of geanstealers a turn is amazing.
    -destp
    Thousand Sons ~2750 points | Eldar ~1000 points
    Tzeentch Daemons ~2000 points

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    Monkey Pirate Greenbeard The Ex-pirate's Avatar
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    You would be surprised at just how useful screamers can be. Assault a front line unit, jump away from it then immediately hit a tender unit you normally would never have a chance to assault. Ork kannons anyone? Throw a large screamer squad into a mob, use their hit and run ablility to jump behind the orks and hit the kannons, bassie, whatever. At the very least you will keep the buggers attention for a turn.
    Rheagar fought nobly
    Rheagar fought valiantly
    Rheagar fought honorably
    And Rheagar died.

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