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Does anyone know where I can find a good tactica or breakdown on fighting Tyranids? With the new codex they just seem so incredibly powerful... so powerful that my regular list doesn't stand much of a chance. I'm looking at playing around the 1500-2000 point level against a Godzilla list with max number of MCs and lots of genestealers. In my limited playing experience it seems like I can always kill one or the other, but not both. I still haven't decided if the best approach is to stay back and shoot at them, or move in for assault. Both have their drawbacks... since if you assault then the genestealers will be there a turn later to take you down, and if you stay back and shoot then you can be easily outmanouevered and once the Tyranids are in range, they will certainly take you down with their own fire power. I guess the way to go is a mix using heavy troop weapons that are AP1 and AP2, but with multiple wounds that is still going to be a pain. Four wound creatures with 2+ armour saves are the devil when they can be so good at shooting and cc. I'm probably a poor player... only been playing for about 2 months... but i'm not sure a regular chaos army list can take a godzilla list. I was thinking of going IW or Death Guard and taking tons of Plague Swords, but both of those options don't sound fun because I don't like tailoring my list specifically to play one opponent... plus neither of those army types appeal to me.
I still think speed is the way to go against TMCs... and that Eldar, DE, Tau, and even Ravenwing skimmers are going to do the best against TMCs. I just haven't figured out a way to deal with them yet.
As a Nid player let me give you a few things that I really, really fear in the chaos dex.
- Autocannons and Heavy Bolters. Really a no brainer but they are quite plentiful in the chaos dex. Slap a few havoks squads full of of them an you'll have a really good base to deal with anything in the nid dex.
- Obliterators, when used correctly, can make mincmeat of anything. Need some heavy bolters, got em. Need some lascannons, well they got em. Very useful against all manner of nid creatures.
- Plasma. If you're having trouble with TMCs look no further than the abundance of plasma in the chaos dex. Heck you can have 4 in a havok squad.
Things I do not fear.
- Flamers. Look good on paper but nids are just too fast for them to be useful.
- Big expensive chaos lords. Anything like a statured prince or a meaty chaos lord makes my tyrant and stealers drool with acid. While useful against other elite armies, the sheer numbers that nids can bring (in cretaures and attacks) makes them paperweights.
Important things to keep in mind.
- Chaos can be damn CC oriented, don't play to the nids strength. Stealers love eating whole marine squads alive or having a nasty chosen unit held up for a whole game by a guant horde. There are amazing shooting aspects to the chaos army so utilize them, keeping the nids at a safe distance.
- Nids can be very quick. Keep in mind when you are deploying that there could be bugs hitting you on the flanks by turn 2.
- Kill the synapse, I cannot emphasie this enough. KILL SYNAPSE CREATURES FIRST! Warriors, Tyrants, and Zanthopes NEED to be your targets. Almost every unit in the nid dex needs the presence of the hive mind, heck even fexes need synapse. Killing these units will immobilize a nid player quickly and effectivley.
- Keep a focused. When a nid player plops down a bunch of scary looking models, don't panic. Keep a strict pecking order of destruction. Syanpse creatures, than stealers and ravners, than fast movers like gargoyles or hormagaunts, than fexes.
"Dare to be Naive"
If someone helps you, or you just like what they say, rep them
As drifter mentioned, target priority is key to killing the bugs. Flying tyrants should be enemy #1, hands down. After that, from your description of your opponent's list, take down the stealers next with shooting. Once that's done, monstrous creatures tend to be very poor in assault unless completely tooled for it. Without dual scything talons and all the other upgrades, they don't have enough power to take down squads and hidden power fists ruin their day... and they can't stand up to melta / plasma shots.
Oblits are great, autocannon havocs are good (destroy stealers and can also cause lots of wounds to the elite TMC's that have 3+ saves), 4 plasma havoc squad makes TMC lists cry, las/plas in regular squads, a couple assaulty squads with PF wielding AC's, a defiler can be useful, too.
It is risky to your own infantry but I love to use defilers against nids. Those ordanance blasts with no armor save destroy those wimps. I make my defiler indirect and hide it back and when they get close I pop out with it and boom havoc launcher and reaper autocannon. Havoc launcher takes care of troops and the reaper can give trouble to anything basically.
40,000- 7,000 Points Chaos Space Marines=18 and 17
40,000- 2,500 Points Tau Empire=1 and 2
Well, we played a 750 point game and I finally won... although it was admittedly cheesy. I fit in 9 lascannons and 4 heavy bolters. His list was much easier however, and he only used a Hive Tyrant with 2 Tyrand Guards, 2 Fexes... one dakka, one sniper, and 2 squads of Genestealers. After I beat him he pulled out a list that had 2 Dakka Fexes, Tyrant with the two guards and the big blast weapon, 3 zoanthropes, no stealers, and just some ripper swarms for his troops. That list totally destroyed me. All of the negative modifiers on my leadership with the stackable -1 Ld ability, and the fact that he blocked LoS with some of his TMCs made it very difficult. Also, the terrain was not in my favor.
I was looking to disrupt Synapse but my lascannons couldn't mow them down fast enough, since once he got through all the nasty terrain that was setup... where I literally had no firing lane... I was in full range of all of his nasty nasty weapons. I think the list could work at 750 but its very important to have terrain in the right places. I also think that the list I used was a bit cheesy.
I don't really enjoy playing sit back and shoot 'em style armies... and I definately didn't have a good balance. Pretty much it wasn't fun. I'd like to be able to have a combination style army, but instead of being great in one area they end up being mediocre in both.
Is it just me or do armies get a big jump in overall strength when they are updated? I don't remember tyranids being this awesome before...
I think Nurgle might have a few things that might help you out if you want to mix it up with nids. So does khorne. Khorne can actually really hurt 'nids cause of the chain axe rule, and it is fun to see plague marines tie up his fast moving hormagaunt unit because they need sixes to wound.
Godzilla lists are tough for non-shooting chaos (or non-shooting anyone, for that matter, except maybe orks), but I think at least using a few cults will allow you to mix it up without completely sacrificing tactical feasibility. Now, that doesn't mean totally rely on these units to win the day every time (as thedrifter777 said, tyranids do have very nasty close combat strength), but if something did manage to get through your firepower you can have a pretty decent counter-attack up your sleave. It goes without saying that CC with 'nids can be risky (one good rending role and your done). I'd recommend khorne, as at least you can dish out an extreme amount of return punishment.
I'd use this for larger games only though, where you wouldn't have to sacrifice your entire fire plan to field a unit of khorne marines.
Last edited by OneManSharpened; November 5th, 2006 at 07:34.
-From those who carry no reflection, the real traitors
I did try a Khorne list at 750 points and I didn't really care for it. It felt like it pretty much drove itself and I got into way more trouble with it than it was worth. The berserker glaive was really nice though. On the subject of Khorne I did have a few questions....
1) How does Blood Frenzy movement work when moving through difficult terrain? Is it halved? Like you move your 6" and it puts you at the forest edge... what do you do?
2) When deciding what target to move towards do you choose the closest visible target? i.e. those not behind forests? If nobody is visible, do you just move straight forward?
I honestly don't like having an army that doesn't control itself. The bloodletters were pretty neat, but I still got destroyed by Stealers since I couldn't control where I was going I just ran towards garbage mobs.
thedrifter nailed it, except for one thing.
If the expensive Lord is going after the right models, Nids do fear them. If the Nids get to choose who the expensive Lord fights, then it's a joke on the chaos player. So if you have a Lord against Nids, make damn sure YOU control who and where he fights...or else he's 150+ wasted metal.
(So stay away from Stealers and CC-TMCs...aside from that, it's like a hot knife through butter. Against shooty-TMCs, the Lord will almost always strike first, and in most cases will have an invuln save where the TMC doesn't. If you've made your Lord well, then he will be wounding on 3s or 2s depending on if you charge or not, and you will either hit on 3s or 4s, so if you can make those invuln saves, you're golden...and remember: Dark Blade!)
Otherwise, just make sure you aim a lot of bolter/heavy bolter shots at Stealers...they hate that stuff Tyranids are the army I most often play.
[Edit - Echu, your comment on the Khorne Blood Rage and not liking not being in control of your army...that is the exact reason I will never play Khorne. They may be amazing, but they're too unstable for my liking - I'm a Tzeentch/Slaanesh finesse type player, and can't stand the unabashed fury and uncontrollable bloodlust that most people seem to love so much. To each their own!]
Last edited by Memnoch Eclipse; November 5th, 2006 at 09:06.
"Long live the Emperor!"
- a patient Chaos God
EcchuBlessu, what is the Godzilla configuration that you would be playing against? Do they use the gaunt swarm or genestealers?
Additionally, when playing against Godzilla, make sure that you concentrate your attacks enough to kill the big bugs. This may seem the obvious tactic, but a lot of players don't seem to do it. Make sure to calculate conservatively. It's really discouraging to take a m.c. down to one wound and then have it still firing next round. So, overkilling is better than underkilling; just don't 'overkill' by too much.
As drifter first mentioned, synapse is the key. You'll need some serious fire power in order to accomplish this goal. Long rane is better than short, since bugs don't have many long ranged guns (36" is their longest, if I remember correctly). On this account, Nids are somewhat like Necron: Gettting Necron to 'phase out' takes about as much work as getting Nids to flee once you've killed all of their synapse. Most good Nid players have builds to prevent the loss of synapse. If you think that you will be unable to kill enough synapse creatures to be effective, don't waste the shots.
1 (killing fliers at range): Killing fliers at range depends largely upon the terrain set up. If you're playing a low terrain game, or the terrain is set up in a way the leaves the bug fliers in the open, then they are easy to shoot down- even with the basic bolter. Try not to devote too much of your ranged fire at these units; a couple of marine squads with plasma guns should do the trick.
2 (killing fliers in c.c.): I've been tinkering with a new strategy against fliers. You can effectively manage the flying bug threat with a 'spearhead' tactic that involves putting a marginally cheap c.c. marine squad at the front of my line. In order for this tactic to work, you must place this c.c. squad in the forward position that does not allow the fliers to reach any other of your havocs in the rear. Most bug players will send their fliers at this c.c. squad as soon as possible, rather than waiting another turn and then trying to reach one of your havocs. Bug players tend to be overzealous when it comes to getting in c.c. and will usually charge the first possible squad. This accomplishes two key objectives: One, it allows you to predict (somewhat) where the fliers will focus; two, the c.c. marine squad will help to protect your fragile havocs.
The 'Spearhead' configuration: 146- 160 points
7-8x marines w/ 2x meltas & an a.c. w/ power fist
Supporting the spearhead: If you're playing B.L., then a horde of daemonettes can successfullly assist your spearhead. If playing I.W. then it's best to use another squad configured like the one above. Bear in mind that chaos doesn't win the point-for-point kill against most Nid builds in c.c.. Sometimes one must sacrifice points in c.c. in order to protect the ranged units at the rear of your army. While the fliers are engaged, your havocs should be able to whittle down the monstrous creatures and then address the smaller bugs.
How to deal with Godzilla (neither options works well):
1 (disrupting synapse control): This is the most effective way to manage the swarm. However, a good Nid player should have enough options so as to thwart any attempt at disrupting their synapse control. Like one bug player once told me, any time he lost synapse control, he was doing something wrong. My philsophy towards synapse disruption is that if a player gives you the opportunity then by all means take advantage of it; just don't plan a strategy around disrupting synapse. It's a losing battle.
2- (busting down the wall): The most consistent way of dealing with Godzilla involves an ample amount of ranged fire that can blow holes in the monstrous creature wall, and thus allowing your anti-troop weaponry to pick away at the smaller bugs. Most of the time you won't destroy the entire wall before it reaches your side of the table, but that's not really the main objective. Godzilla wins by doing enough damage at range (while they are moving forward) so that their smaller bugs- accompanied by what's left of the monstrous creatures- can finish the job in c.c.. Fighting against this build is entirely about timing. The wall must protect the fragile gaunts and/or genes. It takes only one solid round of ranged attacks against the smaler bugs to do enough damage to off-balance the Godzilla tactic.
Combining range and close combat: Perhaps the biggest mistake chaos players make against Godzilla is to overcompensate their builds with ranged models and ignore their close combat options. Godzilla is designed to get into c.c., and 9 times out of 10 they manage to achieve this objective. Without c.c. support, chaos will lose most games once the bugs reach close combat, regardless of the effectiveness of havocs and preds. I would recommend taking between 2-3 c.c. squads. If you're concerned with range, then equip the squads with plasma; otherwise meltas work better for this scenario. Against monstrous creatures designed for ranged combat, a 7 man squad w/ two specials and a fist can successfully take down a single monsrous bug. However, more often than not, the fexes and tyrants are accompanied by the swarm. In order to deal with multiple charging bug squads, you will need reinforcements that you can send in after the initial Nid charge. This tactic only works if your heavy squads have been whittling away at both the monstrous creatures and the swarms. Havocs are vital for tearing down Godzilla. Keep them well to the back of your army, and they shouldn't be targeted for most of the game.
Death Guard: As a D.G. player, the Godzilla build is one of the most difficult challenges. Don't be fooled into believing that lots of meltas and plasmas will win you the game. It just simply doesn't work that way. The difficulty faced with D.G. is that they have no heavy waepon options aside from vehicles, and hence, no long range support. Short range special weapon fire simply does not deal enough damage in time to stop Godzilla. Even at 24" Godzilla will take down more models than D.G.. Actually, a good zilla player will sit at 24" and win by attrition.
There are two options for a D.G. army when it comes to troop deployement against Godzilla:
1- Deploying on your side of the table (i.e., without using infiltrate to place plague marines at 18"): If Godzilla is configured with ranged weaponry on the monstrous creatures, then this strategy WILL NOT work. I've made the mistake of deploying my infilrating plague marines at 24" and then thinking that Godzilla will come to me. However, at 24", a good zilla player will simply outshoot you, or force you to come to them. Even with three preds configured with autocannons lascannons, the bugs will overpower D.G. at range.
2- Deploying on with infilrate at 18" from the bug wall: As mentioned before, D.G. cannot produce enough ranged firepower to defeat Godzilla, unless D.G. is within rapid fire range. At 18" Godzilla can still win the ranged battle. Only when D.G. moves within rapid fire range does the army begin to win at range. However, this tactic will only allow for one shooting phase, as during the Nid player's turn, he/she will undoubtedly charge.