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I've taken a lot of data from several threads, and I think I have a handle on what a lot of people want for Codex: Chaos (note not Chaos Space Marines). What I have here is a few additions to the Armory, a new rule or two, a tentative list of units, and a traits system. For the list, only a few are really new, most can be found elsewhere in the Codices and books the taint has spread to. But they have some changes; that is the meat here. Changes people want, or even a few things I thought of. :w00t: I didn't do costs or stats though.
I haven't gone in depth towards psychic powers because, well, I haven't had time. I brought this list together with quite a bit of effort, and I didn't even get to the Cultist armies. Though they are no doubt next. I think some, particularly TS, warrant their own supplementary list.
For those of you who say a Codex: Chaos is like a Codex: Imperium, bah. This is the might of the Warp in all its undiluted glory.
Without firther ado:
Unit Type: Some units may have obvious unit designations. Chaos Space Marines are Chaos Space Marine units. This will come into play in the Traits system.
Drop Pod Assault: While most of the Dread Legions of Chaos have long since lost the capability to use Drop Pods, some of the newer converts still are in possession of this devastating strategy. (See Codex: Space Marines for particulars on how Drop Pods work). You may only use this strategy if the entire army consists of unmarked Chaos Space Marine units without Veteran Skills (to represent their relative youth to other Chaotics), including Dreadnoughts, Champions of Chaos, Chosen, Possessed, Chaos Space Marines, Havocs, and Daemons that are Summoned into play.
Icons: One Daemonic unit per Icon per turn.
Skills: All skills are avaliable, even those that formerly were Legion-specific. Demagogue (for Demagogues, see list).
Accursed Crozius (Demagogues only, of course. Tech wargear (servo arms, servitors, etc). Many more potent powers (not made yet). Storm and/or Combat Shields. Mark of Chaos Undivided for Vehicles- gets a general bonus to hit, or something. Jump Pack and Daemonic Flight two seperate animals- Jump Packers can fly and Deep Strike, Daemonic Flyers can Hit and Run and fly. Vehicles can have Icons. Stature makes all weapons useable one-handed. Carapace and Power Armor. Daemonic Gifts to get Fleet and +1 I. Better allowances of Gifts. System to create your own Daemon Weapon (going to ask for permission to use this, briliant guy on Warseer made it). Medi Pack description. All Independent Characters start with a close combat weapon and a bolter or bolt pistol.
0-1 Daemon Prince: No basic Armor Save- represent that all can be rewarded with Daemonhood. Must purchase 50 points of Daemonic Gifts from Armory. Is the only model that can take Stature. May be upgraded to a Demagogue and/or Sorceror. You may not also have a Lord. If acting as a compulsory HQ choice, and is marked, all compulsory Troops choices must have that same Mark. Is a Daemonic unit.
Champions of Chaos: Lord, Lieutenant, or Exalted Champions. One to three Exalted Champions may be taken as a single HQ choice, and must be attatched to a CSM or Horde unit (not independent character) they can match the movement of, treating that unit as a retinue. They may not lead Spawn or Chosen already acting as a retinue. You may not have a Prince if you also have a Lord. Exalted Champions may be Sorcerors. Lieutenants and Lords may be upgraded to Demagogues and/or Sorcerors. If a Lord or Lieutenant is acting as a compulsory HQ choice and has a Mark, then any compulsory Troops choices must aslo have that Mark. Lords and Lieutenants may have retinues of Chosen. Are Chaos Space Marines.
0-1Greater Daemon: As normal, save that a Chaos Undivided Greater Daemon is avaliable. It may take some Gifts. Daemonic. If acting as a compulsory HQ choice, all compulsory Troops must have the same mark as their leader.
0-1 Traitor Command: Commander has profiles of a Junior, Senior, and Heroic Senior Officer avaliable. He may take an Inquisitor-style retinue of Henchmen. He and any Warriors (this is just an equivalent word) may take carapace armor and hellweapons to represent Blood Pact- if so, they may only take the Mark of Khorne or Chaos Undivided. Allowed one Skill. Can be upgraded to a Sorceror and/or Demagogue. Cannot be compulsory HQ choice if CSM are present in the force. If marked and compulsory HQ, compulsory Troops must match it in Mark. Is a Horde unit.
0-1 Heretic Agitators: These guys act like Priests in Imperial Guard, just for Chaos. They are attatched to a Horde unit, but not Spawn or Death Cult Assassins. They do not take an HQ choice, just there for organization. Are a Horde unit.
INQ- Death Cult Assassins: Use entry from an Inquisitorial Ordo Codex. May take a Mark. Are a Horde unit. May not be joined by Agitators or Exalted Champions.
Possessed: Come with Fleet, can take two Daemonic Gifts. Are Chaos Space Marines.
0-1 Chosen. Combined entry to allow mixed armor for character. Can act as retinues of up to 9. If not Marked or Skilled, one may be an Apothecary. Power armored Chosen may take great weapons, power weapons, and power fists as options. Chaos Space Marine unit.
Big Mutants: May take gifts, but are not intellectual enough to conceptualize actual worship, so cannot take a Mark. Horde unit.
Blood Pact Heavy Stormers: Look like Stormtroopers, can take hellpistols and close combat weapons instead of hellguns. Mark of Khorne or Chaos Undivided only. Must have a Blood Pact Traitor Command to use. May take a Skill or Deep Strike. Horde unit.
Chaos Dreadnought: May be Ancient- can have some Skills and Marks, but also has Frenzy. Chaos Space Marine unit.
IG- 0-1 Techpriests: Use entry in Imperial Guard Codex. Can only have Chaotic wargear (why tech stuff was added to Armory). May take a Mark (So and so of the Bloodied Spanner, Techpriest of Khorne... don't know who has this in their sig, but it rocks) and a Skill. Horde unit.
Cultists: Big squad, can have Icon and a Mark. Must have a Skill Set. Horde unit.
Chaos Space Marines: Same ol' same. Chaos Space Marine unit. Duh.
Traitors/Slaves/Mercenaries/Blood Pact/Chaos Xenos. Include profiles for Traitors, which come in platoons (no command), and Slaves, which come in one big squad. Can take Demo Charges, but do not have to replace model. Horde unit.
Mutants: Include rules for Beastmen and Plague Zombies as well as regular Muties. Can take Gifts from list. Come in one big squad. Horde unit.
Daemon Packs. Add Chaos Undivided Daemons. Bloodletters get Feel No Pain instead of power-armored codpieces, and Furious Charge, a Collar, and perhaps heavy close combat weapons instead of power weapon equivalents. Horrors have one wound, start as Pink and split into two Blue when they die, assuming you have the models. Daemonic unit.
Daemonic Swarms- Add swarms for all powers and Chaos Undivided. Summoned. Daemonic unit.
Spawn: Multiple types, varying in size and gifts allowed- big ones can take more. May be marked. No Agitators or Exalted Champions may join. Horde unit.
Rhino: Chaos Space Marine Unit.
Chimera: Horde unit.
Midgarsorm: Daemonic vehicle with transport capabilities, front ramp, and assault stats, but a dangerous ride- might eat passenger. Daemonic Engine.
SM- Land Speeder (w/Variants): Use entry in Space Marine Codex. Can only take Chaos vehicle upgrades. Chaos Space Marine unit.
0-1 Raptors: May take Marks. Can change D. Flight to Jump Packs- no Hit and Run but can Deep Strike. Chaos Space Marine unit.
Chaos Space Marine Bikes: Add Attack Bikes option if not Marked or Skilled. Chaos Space Marine unit.
Chaos Hounds: Horde unit.
Bandersnatch: Daemonic vehicle that gets bonus points for SM killed on a D6 roll of 5+- harvests geneseed. Daemonic Engine.
Daemonic Beasts: Add one for Nurgle, include Mounted Daemonettes. Keep Collar on Hounds? Daemonic unit.
IG- Rough Riders: Use entry from IG Codex. Can only take Chaos wargear and one Skill. May be Marked. Can take Carapace Armor. Horde unit.
IG- Sentinels: Use entry from Imperial Guard Codex. Can only take Chaos vehicle upgrades. Horde Unit.
IG- Hellhounds: Use entry from Imperial Guard Codex. Can only take Chaos vehicle upgrades. Horde Unit.
IG- Leman Russ (w/Variants): Use entry from Imperial Guard Codex. Can only take Chaos vehicle upgrades. Horde Unit.
IG- Basilisk: Use entry from Imperial Guard Codex. Can only take Chaos vehicle upgrades. Horde Unit.
SM- Whirlwind: Use entry from Space Marine Codex. Can only take Chaos vehicle upgrades. Chaos Space Marine unit.
SM- Land Raider: Use entry from Space Marine Codex. Can only take Chaos vehicle upgrades. Chaos Space Marine unit.
SM- Predator: Use entry from Space Marine Codex. Can only take Chaos vehicle upgrades. Horde Unit.
SM- Vindicator: Use entry from Space Marine Codex. Can only take Chaos vehicle upgrades. Chaos Space Marine unit.
Havocs: Chaos Space Marine unit.
0-1 Obliterators: May take Marks, which may affect weapons (i.e. Slaaneshi get twin link blastmasters or whatever). Chaos Space Marine unit.
0-1 Defiler: Can take an upgrade to be a Tank (Spider tanks for Blood Pact)- may Tank Shock. No longer a Monstrous Creature- has two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons.
All Chaos armies must have a base- what is the core of their army and what is allied? Thus, each Chaos force must select a Base from below before composing a list. Then, the army may choose Influences, Skills, Specialties, and also Disadvantages- one of which must be taken per Skill and Specialty. But outside of the Base, the Traits system is optional.
Chaos Space Marines: You may take units from the Space Marine Codex as specified in the army list. Daemonic and Horde units may be included, but may not compose of units outside this Codex, and no unit may form a compulsory choice, save Daemonic units, which may form the compulsory HQ unit. Even Chaos Space Marines will listen to a normal man who is blessed by the Gods and is now a Daemon Prince! Can take Daemonic Engines freely.
Daemons: No Horde units or Chaos Space Marine units from outside this Codex may be taken, and any Chaos Space Marine units or Horde units that are taken may not form compulsory units, except for Chaos Space Marines, who may form the compulsory HQ unit. Can take Daemonic Engines freely. Daemons in this army get extra Favored bonuses.
Horde: Horde units from outside this Codex may be taken, but not Chaos Space Marine units from the Space Marine Codex. Chaos Space Marine and Daemonic units may never form compulsory units save for the compulsory HQ. Daemonic Engines may be taken.
Khorne: Mark of Khorne only. -1 Strategy Rating. Major Favored bonuses. No psychic powers.
Tzeentch: Mark of Tzeentch only. +1 Strategy Rating. Minor Favored bonuses.
Slaanesh: Mark of Slaanesh only. Favored bonuses.
Nurgle: Mark of Nurgle only. Favored bonuses.
Chaos Undivided: Mark of Chaos Undivided only. One extra skill allowed in addition to max.
Skill: Pick a skill from the Skills List. Apply it universally. It does not count toward your maximum number of skills.
Raptors: 0-1 limit removed.
Cultists: One additional skill outside their Skill Set may be chosen.
Obliterators: 0-2 or larger squad size?
Disruption Table: Think Alaitoc Rangers, except not so drastic.
Daemons: May be Compulsory Troops if not allowed to be.
Heavy Support: May exchange one Fast Attack slot for an extra Heavy Support Slot.
Fast Attack: May exchange one Heavy Support slot for an extra Fast Attack Slot.
Troops: May exchange up to three of any one of Heavy Support, Elites, or Fast Attack slots for one extra Troops slot.
Dreadnoughts: A Dreadnought may be an HQ unit for the army, and may be the compulsory HQ unit if allowed.
Disadvantages (1 per Skill or Specialty)
No Drop Pod Assault (if viable)
No Psychic Powers (if allowed)
No Marks of Chaos
No Veteran Skills
No Outside Chaos Space Marines (if allowed)
No Outside Horde
No Daemonic Engines
No Chaos Space Marines
Few Vehicles (0-1 of each, does not apply to Transports)
No Vehicles (prerequisite: Must choose Few Vehicles)
This system I have designed limits some of the moans and groans I've heard about Chaos (Oblits and IW, for example) while not stifling its essential character. If anything I believe this Codex layout is too liberal, too free... which leads me to believe it is tainted. Open to any comment. Who was willing to read all this?
Hmm.. for once I don't have much positive to say about any of the ideas here..
Why would the Chaos Space marines take imperial guard hoard units as elits? They're supposed to be the elite ones.
There's a lot of interesting ideas here.. but it's all been executed like a 10 year old writing rules, where he makes his Chaos bolters cost 1 points, have S10 AP1 large blast all for 2 points.
The codex ideas you've created suggest that people want to play chaos, but can't be bothered to buy chaos models so will just use their imperial ones.
C'mon, you can't just have a codex and say, 'oh, by the way, you can select any thing from that codex too.'
Technically, Chaos IS infinite with it's possibilities.. but in game terms, this doesn't work. Chaos is already the most varied army by far. But.. this is too much.
I'm impressed over the amount of work yo've put into this.
Though I think you've might have put in to many options.
Like all the loyalist machines, let them have them. If one wants to use a traitor chapter, then OK, but use the SM codex.
I like the HQ dread a lot though...Very nice.
I really tried to discriminate what units could be allied, but I also wanted to represent armies relatively new to the path of darkness. I also was trying incorporate LatD, obviously, but all that makes for a big list.
Some of the 'outside' units, you'll notice, are units avaliable in the current Chaos 'dex. I wanted to find a way to make it so that one couldn't have a LatD style army with three Land Raiders, for example.
Other parts were a bit overboard. I heard 'Chaos Techpriest' and added that, tried to think of a way to keep Vindys and Bassies for IW style armies... but then I was like all, 'hey, LatD got Leman Russes, let's add that,' and it snowballed.
I really wanted to represent also that Chaos is not just Abaddon and his baddies. There's like a whole Dark Imperium aspect to it. For each Marine, there's a billion or so lesser beings, and some of them perform in the same capacity as their Imperial counterparts. Plus Marines are so boring...
Personally, I might take out the Techpriest, Razorback, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Sentinels, Hellhound, Leman Russ (or at least the variants), Whirlwind... excessive stuff. Drop Pods might also be a bad idea... but what the devil are Dreadclaws for? I suppose that Combat and Storm Shields might be OTT too.
But hey, I put this up for comment, so comment away.
Indeed.. it's a brilliant effort, and i apologise for not saying that first. I realised it wasn't all your own ideas which is why i didn't feel so bad slating them.
It does look like a 9 year old's christmas wish list though.
I definitely agree with you about Traitor Guard Regiments though. They should be available to Chaos, but in all honesty, they deserve a seperate codex - but with ally potential.
I also agree with catering for fallen marines - to a certain extent. There should be very very strict limits on how many and what type of units can be taken from the SM codex.
Original stuff is great, but once again, i think people may go over board with it:Please note, the above is poking fun at MYSELF for my whiney ways.LEt's have a vehicle with lots of weapons that's a fast skimmer that can't be immobalised and also you can reroll the glance table!
Inside it there's a unit who you have to use nightfighting rules to shoot, have an invulnerable save and have high initiative rending attacks and fleet and ignore cover
This kinda makes the ISM list redundant. I mean, we've now got almost everything they do. Not a good idea.
Open up in the name of the Lawl!
Rheagar fought nobly
Rheagar fought valiantly
Rheagar fought honorably
And Rheagar died.
OK it's a lot of work that's been done, and I'm impressed.
However I strongly disagree with the direction that it was taken. Rather than working to combine chaos all together and adding imperial goodies too all into one list I would prefer to see chaos broken up a few distinct and complete codexes that then use an allying system like you see with inquisitorial forces.
Here are a few of the pitfalls that hit me right off the bat.
This rule system allowes for multiple powerfists/weapons in most useful close combat squad.
by allowing priest agitators, & latd style champions, not to mention the reguar champion. Add a few marines or a lot of mutants/slaves/cultists and you're talking about a CC unit that is way too powrfull for it's britches.
It takes the best things from several army books and makes them available to one list. LatD, Chaos, Guard, Inquisition. I know the LatD book does this to a degree as well, but it's complicated force orginization chart is designed to keep things in balance. You have to take traitors to have tanks, marked units are elites ect the whole point of those rules where to keep the kind of imbalances that are rampant in this list from being a problem.
I am graitful you shared these ideas, and I hope I didn't sound too negative. I understand we've got our new codex coming up in a while, and the folks at GW might just be listening into our ideas on things so I say it's a good to talk about these things even though I disagree with you on the particulars of it.
Votewar MKV 2nd place. . .
Back from internet limbo, and glad to be here.
But what I was trying to do with the traits system (by forcing each player to choose a base for their particular flavor of Chaos) was to prevent that to some extent. You won't see a Land Speeder and a Techpriest in one list because it cannot be done according to the rules. Some might have been OTT but personally I stand by my traits system (at least the idea), it was one of the few things I came up with myself. Of course, it's still in relative conceptual form and could use improvements, but hey, that's how developement goes.
Thanks for the comments so far.