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Quick note: This thread is not intended to discourage players from using predators. In fact, I have often used predators quite successfully (still do). More precisely, this thread aims to to discuss the effectual comparison of the following two units. All references to havocs and predators in this initial post are meant to reflect these two condigurations. Here are the following units for comparison:
1- one Squad of 8x Havocs with 4 autocannons & tank hunter
2- TWO Chaos Predators w/ autocannon turrets, lascannon sponsons & daemonic possession
8x Havoc Squad: 216 Points
2x Predator: 290 Points
8x Havoc Squad: 8 shots at 8S
2x Predator: 8 shots- 4 at 9S, 4 at 7S
Eight shots at 8 strength weapons are more capable of taking down vehicles w/ armor values of 14, as compared to 4 lascannon shots & 4 autocannon shots. Since the predator autocannons are a 7 strength, the weapon cannot damage 14 amor values.
LINE OF SIGHT:
Since infantry can fire at 360 degrees, the havocs will never have the issue of repositioning the autocannons in order to fire at enemy models that are located at the flank of the squad or to the side. The predators, on the other hand, can only fire all of their weapons if the desired enemy model(s) are directly in front of the predator. Because of the heavy weapons, the predator loses the ability to fire all of its weapons if it is required to turn and face enemy models that are either at its flank or on its sides. This gives a definite advantage of the havocs over the predator
The predators can potentially be taken down with one well placed shot, whereas the havocs have 4 'red shirts' that help to protect the autocannons. Additionally, in 40K there are very few, if any, weapons that have long range, high strength, low A.P. characteristics that could potentially wreck havoc squads. For this reason, it is in my epxerience much easier to take down two predators than an 8 man havoc squad. This point becomes even more apparent by the fact that te havocs can sustain loses as much as 50% and still fire at 100% against vehicles. While the armor value of the front of the predator is difficult to penetrate, it is by no means impossible. Furthermore, fast moving tank hunting squads/vehicles can easily negotiate to the sides of the predator in order to place hits on the weaker armor value.
CONDITIONAL ADVANTAGE OF INFANTRY OVER VEHICLES IN CHAOS BUILDS:
Any army build that limits itself to only infantry or vehicles will effectively render the opponent's weapons less functional. With regard to havocs, an all-infantry based army renders your opponent's tank busting weapons less effective (i.e., no vehicles are the table means that lascannons and the likes will have to fire at troops). In an infantry based build, this translates into a huge advantage for havocs, which deliver the same- if not better- offensive payload than the two predators, while at the same not providing your opponent with one-shot-one-kill meay targets, such as predators. Since chaos does not have an 'armored company' equivilant, there is no build that corresponds to the predator that would in essence provide this same tactical advantage.
The main advantage of two predators over a single havoc squad hinges on the fact that the preds (being two independent models) can fire at two separate targets each round; whereas the havoc squad is limited to one target per round. This, perhaps, is the only advantage of having two predators over a single havoc squad.
Last edited by Rabbit; November 25th, 2006 at 21:25.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
your havocs can be killed by lasguns on rapid fire
will be cut down quite effectively by any troops standard guns firing enough shots
str 6 or less and your predator is immune
with mutated hull the comparison is even more valid as you are immune to str 7 from the front, that same str 7 autocannon will cut your havocs apart
ps i'm not saying your post doesn't have merit, i just don't think you look at enough points so i'll list a few
1 - against marines or even better terminators, your preds are getting 4 shots which ignore basic saves
2 -assault, many units are not able to damage a pred in combat or have limited chances to do it (power fist at str 8 for instance). ALSO, very importantly if they survive the combat the pred can fire all its weapons again next turn. Havocs are locked in combat. SO, if the enemy can get a cheap big unit into combat with your very expensive havocs they may not kill the marines, but they will stop them firing
i'll leave those two for you to ponder at the momnet
as stated though i'm not saying your post doesn't have merit, simply that it doesn't tell the whole story
nice post Master Rabbit,
i must agree though, that sometimes a Tank's durability is to die for (hohoho).
I had a rather messy game against nids today, between two zoanthropes, raveners and a hive tyrant, my autocannon havocs were destroyed without having fired a single shot.
(admittedly i forgot my cover saves and rolled like a spanner).
But then again.. it's all swings and roundabouts really.. had I had a predator there instead, no doubt he would have used a focus warp blast and his gunfex on me.
I think the point cost difference is perhaps a little steep to compare.
For the prices you suggest, you could get an autocannon squad AND an obliterator (more or less).
Look in the Main Rulebook about pivoting your vehicle in the shooting phase.
(page 64. "Turning to face" section)
To look at this scenario a bit differently, what if the predators were firing at other preds w/ mutated hull? Then the preds autocannons would be useless when fired against the front armor. The havocs, however, are still able to fire all 8 autocanon shots.
2 preds firing all their weapons: 1.86 kills
2 preds that only have line of sight with the turrets and 2 of the 4 lascannon sponsons: 1.11 kills
havocs firing just their autocannons at the termis: .72 kills
havocs firing all their weapons at the termis: .93 kills
The preds are definitely better for killing termis. No doubt about it; but they are 'that' much better, especially when considering that termis aren't the prime targets of either this pred or the havocs w/ autocannons. Honestly, if you're firing at termis, then either your opponent doesn't have any vehicles left, or you are doing something wrong. Even the best scenario for killing termis doesn't make 290 points of predators cost effective.
Thanks for the comments. Keep 'em coming.
Last edited by Rabbit; November 26th, 2006 at 01:47.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
I'd have to say I like the idea of a Havoc squad with multiple wounds as being more durable than the 2 Predators. But I have a Death Guard army and run 2 Preds with the same configuration and they have not failed me yet.
"They say the Darkness consumes you. They don't say what happens after It's done."
H.Q.: Lord, infiltrate, d. speed, manreaper...etc
Elites: 3x obltis
Troops: 5x infiltrating plague marines (2 meltas, 3 plasmas)
Heavy: 2 havoc squads (8x w/ 4x autocannons & tank hunter).
To my surprise the B.L. build faired significantly better than my D.G.. The D.G. was virtually the same build, except one more troop, no oblits, no havocs, & 3 preds. The 2 havocs tank busted quite a bit better than the 3 predators, at near the same cost. In my games, the havocs also had more staying power.
I guess I should have made the initial assessment based upon 2 havoc squads compared to 3 predators, since the point distribution is very close (432 for the havocs; and 435 for the predators). Needless to say, two havoc squads produce much more fire power than 3 predators. This, I think, illustrates my point a little better, and also maintains a closer point investment between the havocs and the predators.
Last edited by Rabbit; November 27th, 2006 at 03:51.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
I think it mainly depends on the rest of the army.
Havocs are more surivable than Predators. While some people can state that Predators are immune to small arms fire, those people conveniently forget that a single Meltagun can wreck a Predator. It'll take a minimum of five shots before the Havocs start feeling any pain. Not to mention that Havocs can make use of Cover Saves.
Predators make up for this by having a measure of mobility. While not a whole lot of it, they do have the option of being able to move a bit and still have a chance at doing damage. TLLCs are nice for this, since you're still a threat and completely hiding from the Predator is tough.
If you have an issue with your Havocs being tied up in Close Combat too often, then you buy them a Champion with a Power Weapon and Daemonic Strength. Problem solved.
I realize that is a quick and dirty summary, but it illustrates the point I'm about to make. It all depends on what the rest of your army does, and what you need filled.
Have a problem with too many AV14 tanks? Monoliths causing no ends of problems? Then take Lascannon Preds.
Got Oblits and Meltagun/Plasmagun totting Raptors and CC squads for mobile firepower? Then take Havocs, since they can afford to sit and let other units chase after those units that are hiding.
Using a bunch of Rhinos to deliver shooty nastiness into the lines of your enemy? Use Predators so they can keep up and protect your flanks.
Going all Infantry based so that your opponent wastes points on anti-tank weaponry? Go Havocs.