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We were getting off topic in this thread, so here everyone can discuss LatD and connections to the Chaos Codex, etc.
I think LatD should be it's own Codex, as should Chaos Space Marines, but there should be a third: The Chaos Gods or something to represent the World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children. The Undivided Legions would be in the regular CSM Codex.
What do you guys think? Some ten total Codices for Imperials and three for Chaos.
The Devoted Legions don't really need their own Codex unless you're going to make extra special units for them and them alone, which wouldn't fit Chaos all that much. Their rules, and their Special Characters (Kharn, Typhus, Lucius & Ahriman) take up about 10 pages, not a Codex. And that includes pictures. Very big pictures.
You really need a separate codex for each separate entity that can field a huge force that's wildly distinct from any other. I'm very tempted to say the entirety of the Inquisition (Xenos, Malleus and Hereticus) should be crammed into one big, rules-intensive codex like the current Codex: CSMs, since the Grey Knights were never meant to be entire army material, the Deathwatch certainly don't sound like entire army material and the Sisters could do fine with Daemonhunters & Witch Hunters support. But that's another story.
I hereby post my first proposed change to Codex: The Lost and the Damned, for those of you who want to play an entire regiment turned traitor or simply want a cheaper HQ choice than an Arch-Heretic that isn't Aspiring Champions... The Traitor General.
Traitor General - 30 points
One needn't be a Chaos Space Marine to be highly valued and gifted by the Ruinous Powers. Especially skilled, charismatic or fierce mutants can easily gain such an honour, and are a potent threat if they can leave the Eye of Terror by any means. Imperial Guard officers, seeking a quick path to power or simply wanting to escape the wrath of Chaos, will sell their souls to darkness for such a prize. And then there are Inquisitors who, seeking to use Chaos against itself, were corrupted by the power they wished to use for good. Whatever the explanation, if the Emperor's most beloved son fell to the temptations of the Dark Gods then anyone and everyone is capable of it.
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
_4 _4 3 3 2 4 3 _9 5+
Weapons: Lasgun, close combat weapon, frag grenades.
The General may replace his lasgun with an autogun, a laspistol/autopistol, a shotgun, or firearms for free.
The General may be upgraded to a Big Mutant for +35 points. He must be modelled on a 40mm base, and gains the following statline:
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
_5 _3 6 4 4 4 4 _9 5+
A Traitor General who is so upgraded may not take Daemon Armour, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Flight, Daemonic Essence, a Bike, or a Steed of any kind. He also takes up two slots in any transport vehicle because of his size. He may still join units that are smaller than him and does not count as a Large Target for any purposes.
Any Traitor General not wearing Daemon armour may replace his 5+ save with a 4+ save at +5 points, or a 3+ save at +10 points. This does not count towards his 75 points of equipment and the task of explaining how he gets these saves I leave to you.
Any Traitor General may have up to 75 points of equipment from the Chaos armoury, of which up to 50 may be Daemonic Gifts, but may not wear Terminator armour. As he is not even a Chaos Space Marine, let alone a Chaos Lord, he pays the second cost (the Aspiring Champion cost) for all Wargear.
As well as all the above options, a Traitor General may take a Mark of Chaos as follows:
In addition to the above effects all Marks of Chaos increase the Traitor General's Leadership to 10 as testament to his favour among the Dark Gods. A Traitor General with a Mark of Chaos may of course access Gifts of his patron god.
- Mark of Khorne (10 points): The General gains +1 Attack.
- Mark of Nurgle (10 points): The General gains Daemonic Resilience.
- Mark of Slaanesh (10 points): The General gains +1 Initiative and the Warp Scream ability.
- Mark of Tzeentch (10 points): The General gains the Sorcerer ability.
- Mark of Chaos Undivided (75 points; 1 per army): Every unit in the army may reroll all failed morale checks. This effect lasts even if the Traitor General is killed.
((Like it isn't obvious...)) A Traitor General is an Independent Character and follows all the rules for one.
Retinue: If he is not a Big Mutant, the Traitor General may be lead a unit of Traitors or Mutants; if he IS a Big Mutant, the Traitor General may lead a unit of Mutants or Big Mutants. Either way the retinue does not take up any slots on the force organisation chart, and the General must remain attached to it while any members remain.
My second change? Amend Daemonic Essence to XX/10*
*Aspiring Champions leading units of Chaos Space Marines cannot take Daemonic Essence. Traitor Generals, and Aspiring Champion HQ choices in The Lost and the Damned, summarily can.
The reason for this being, it allows you to field a 3-wound Traitor General, and I figure if a Mutant Boss can have 2 wounds why can't the Chaos Space Marine messiah leading his unit have 2 wounds?
Also, increase the leadership of the Agitator from 7 to 8. Helps justify his points cost, and I figure anyone willing to lead the sheep to damnation has to be fairly brave to take the risk.
I don't currently play chaos, but another guy in my group and I were discussing it and thought that the codices could go something like this (or at least we'd like them to)
1) Chaos marines
3) Evils of the Warp. basically an all daemon type of list...? Basically where the warp just opens up and turns some unsuspecting place into a Daemon World. Obviously there'd need to be some new daemons introduced, as well as 'warp terrain' in the vein of the Catachan jungle stuff, or FWs tyranid landscape accessories.
just my thoughts.
Baby, when I'm the voice of reason, we've got problems!~artificerSomeone should stop
Jervis "let's make it easy enough for a 3 year old to play" Johnson
before he turns 40k into checkers~anon
I have recently read the codexes for blood angels, dark angels and spac wolves. They aren't long, they aren't thick, but they're excellent. They're fantastic simply because of the amount of fluff they include and the personalised options they give their marines.
I would love to see the Chaos Legions treated in the same way. While i realise it's not practical to do a codex for every traitor legion, they should definitely do two, one for cult legions and one for undecided legions.
This links in with the topic because I firmly believe that LaTD must be it's own seperate and full codex. This isn't fantasy battle. Chaos Marines are not, haughty horse riders from the northern plains - They are veterans and elites of 10 000 years. Therefore different from the cults, albeit intrinsically linked.
Also, as I've said before, most of the battles in the 40K universe are fought with Imperial Guard versus Orks or LaTD.
Lost and The Damned represents an excellent opportunity for GW to flex it's creative muscle. Of all the minis I've built, the LaTD I'm working on at the moment has been the most fun by miles. Each one has so much character.
With a simply ally system, you should easily be able to get a good balance with a large rabble of mutants and a few elites squads of Chaos marines should you choose. More than ever, the Chaos Lists can be the personal journey of one Character.
I fully agree with Lictorinthegrass that cultists should be available to all Chaos Space MArine Legions though.
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric
IMO it's not a stretch to include LatD into a CSM Codex as it only takes up TWO pages. Of course my opinion may be fuelled by my desire not to fork out $50 for two codexes.. or codecii... whatever the plural is.
Anyway the consensus seems to be that a lot of people like LatD... that's good..
I also agree that Cultists should be able to be taken by any legion. Ontop of that, I'd like to see different variations of Cultists depending on the Legion ally being taken... for instance, Worldeaters would have Death Cultists in whatever form, be they assassin-like (makes a nice contrast to mindless blood-thirsty madmen) or just brutish civilians with torn clothes, bulging red eyes and an array of improvised blunt objects with spikes and nails attached. I'd like to see a nice fleshed-out Cultist list in LatD alongside Traitor troops and such.
Takka n' Wakka's Dakka Attacka! 33W / 6L / 1D
While that idea is interesting, you have to remember that we're already talking about one of the most powerful lists around. The addition of a free alliance system is going to make it even more so.
In my opinion, which is based on the fluff, there should be a standard, fluff based 'chaos list' which would probably be closer to current lost and the damned rules than anything else. It would take up a whole book, however, and would need to be flexible enough to encompass everything from alpha legion strike forces with infiltrating local cultists to elite chaos commandos like the blood pact or a mutated horde of iron warrior 'experiments' being herded along by their masters simply through making the right unit choices. The big change, I think, should be the proportion of unaltered humans to CSM.. You might expect your average army to be at least 50% human/mutant.
In answer to the point on the other posts that the chaos marines don't take their servants into combat, the first waves of troops dropped on Cadia, and the vast majority of chaos combattants there, were mutants and traitorous humans who had fought each other for places on the ships. Mutants may not be superhuman, but they're cunning, vicious and in most cases stronger than the average human. If you had a willing army of billions of them ready to die at your command, wouldn't you use it?
Then, if needs be, you can release a separate CSM codex which gives a few ideas for special 'elite lists,' a little like the old dark angels deathwing army. These could be composed entirely of CSM, however, CSM should come in smaller numbers (with a consequent increase in power) making these lists much more specialised and with a 'small strike force' feel rather than having hordes of marines all in the same place.
I think that's the fluffiest option.. It puts the focus of chaos very much on human based armies with the option (but no requirement) to field CSM leaders and overlords. Then, if needs be, the option exists to field low model count armies of super-baddass chaos marines, who would probably play more like grey knights than space marines.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; December 22nd, 2006 at 17:49.
I agree with mantis, making everything able to be used with everything else leads to min-maxing and taking certain broken units only. I don't like that one bit. It happens in some lists now and it doesn't really feel "right" when playing against or with those lists.
the proposed breakdown sort of sounds like the fantasy: hordes and beasts of chaos. Both chaos, and they can be fielded with one another but they are essentially separate elements to chaos. I like the general sense of how LatD works now.
I'm an Alpha legion player, so maybe my perspective is skewed. I don't think giving access to use cultists in any legion would be either fluffy or balanced. Some armies are balanced in power based on model count. I don't see any other legions fluff that would support making extensive use of cultists(maybe word bearers).
W/D/L Eleventy trillion billion/NONE/ NONE - I am STILL rulezor!
WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!
Well, I think we've got the general points here already - LatD need a separate codex. While the Chaos Space Marines will always be numerous enough to fight alone, the Lost and the Damned are fluff-wise very much in the majority. Care to get to the nitty-gritty bits of rules development?
For a start the Mark of Nurgle is 5 points too high for what it does IMHO. At least a Nurglesque Aspiring Champion would retain the True Grit ability, even if this does make for easy swaps of ACs from Death Guard squads to ACs leading Mutant mobs or Traitor squads.
For another, Agitators need more stuff to show just how agitating they are. At the least make them Leadership 8 as they really would be at least as brave as Sarge was back in the Loyalist IG list.
For a third, Mutant Bosses really deserve the right to Daemonic Gifts. They have several already, why shouldn't they have the right to, say, another 10 points of them?
And Chaos Spawn could do with a boost, since they've gained the disadvantage from being Insanely stupid and not got a points break for it. I vote that since they don't have Chaos Space Marines slowing them down, the whole unit should Fleet - when it isn't too stupid, of course.