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Loyalist Space Marines
Anything else (please specify with a post)
As you may have surmised I have the insane project of proxying an army of Squat (NOTE for all you stunt haters out there, quit this thread if you think they are better left dead!!! :shifty: ).
For those of you interested in fluff here is a brief summary:
They are the survivors of a stronghold founded far away from the galactic core (so it is justified why they were out of the tyranid invasion range), their planet was lost long ago in a warp-storm and now they are back for good albeit a bit changed…. “No we are not warped, we are just …. Different! And don’t look at my spikes!”. The mood I’m aiming at is a bit like steampunk.
PS does any of you remember of a planet in the chaos codex which hosted a great machine-smith civilisation? No?. Seriously this is not that much fluff I know but if anyone is interested I will post something more in the future.
For those of you that have great age but little memory or little age and no memory at all of these ridiculously fantastic army here is a brief synopsis (mind that it is taken as much from Epic as from RT) of the most important elements IMHO:
1) Squad size: it was 8. No more no less (but sometimes it could be 4). The leader wasn’t any different from the rest of the squad.
2) Weaponry: Squat had an insane love for big menacing weapons, especially heavy bolters (they could have every man in a squad armed with these), plasma, hand flamers and many many assault weapons!
3) Stoic: they had T4 back when marines had just a 3…. ‘nuff said. moreover they were "steady"
4) Bikers: little drunken savages they owned pretty much anything on the field and the trikes had a sweet little multi melta .
5) Engineers: they had a very good comprehension of technic -far better than imperials- and their guild engineers could keep them going.
6) Transports: they used termites (digging transports used to appear under the field) land riders and rhinos.
7) Vehicles: they didn’t use tanks at all apart from transports relying for support on gyrocopters (flying), grand batteries (tarantulas, thudd guns and the like) and huge warmachines.
Now I’m asking for your help in choosing which codex would be better, here are my thoughts:
1) chosen number much lower
2) perhaps the best of the proxyers: sonic blaster could pass for “light heavy bolters” and doom sirens are perfect hand flamers
3) nothing really outstanding, apart from fearless
4) well, slaneesh bikes are quite good IMHO, am I wrong? Problem is there aren’t trikes unless you say the melta/plasma armed bikes are trikes, which could be a good compromise
5) the only thing that could represent them is parasitic possession which isn’t that bad
6) no way to represent termites apart from giving them infiltrate which sounds a poor man choice to me but also the only one I have
7) no gyros and no warmachines at all and even for batteries there is little that could pass (you could take your pick with either dreadnoughts, defilers or obliterators -but these aren’t allowed in a pure army which I’d prefer- none of the three is identical but there isn’t anything better)
1) chosen number lower but not that much, it is even justified in the fluff (death is one of us)
2) their weakest point, no heavy bolter at all, even if it is somehow balanced by true grit.
3) T5 and fearless… who could be more resilient??
4) bikes? Do they have bikes? :cry:
5) as with EC the only thing that could represent them is parasitic possession which isn’t that bad
6) as above. no way to represent termites apart from giving them infiltrate which sounds a poor man choice to me but also the only one I have
7) guess? Again as above!!! no gyros and no warmachines at all and even for batteries there is little that could pass (you could take your pick with either dreadnoughts, defilers or obliterators -but these aren’t allowed in a pure army which I’d prefer - none of the three is identical but there isn’t anything better)
loyalist space marine (but which traits?)
1) again their number is different, this time higher (10)
2) nothing special to say
3) again nothing special to say
4) here is where we begin to have something to say with bikes and attack bikes
6) drop pods
7) land speeders are perfect for gyros and Damocles command rhino as the support given from warmachines’ bombardment. while batteries have the same problem as above and only one choice, the dread
there have been from past discussions with friends and acquaintances over this issue with many suggestions like LatD, Space Wolves, IG, Iron warriors or even (AAARGH!) Orks. Neither of these ever convinced me but I’m open to suggestions.
NB looking at my rant above perhaps loyalist SM could be the best choice but I wanted with Squat an army with little to no tanks, perhaps slow, but highly resilient and having neither fearless nor high T wasn’t to my liking plus I don’t like that much SMs and I fear some smurfiness could brim over my beloved stunties …
I'd firstly suggest accepting two things.. one, you will have to compromise. So all these little things like maximum squad size are not really worth worrying about. Similarly, not all the awesome special rules can possibly be reflected in a proxy list, so I'd advise not trying to get everything and merely aim for an army which plays a little like the old squats.
Secondly, you love squats, sure, but don't overhype them. Really.. they weren't supposed to be as good as space marines (they exceeded them statistically, yes, but in rogue trader era.. that's a long, long time ago and things were very different.) So don't try and make them one man army killing monsters and write it down to 'squats are awesome!'
I'd strongly suggest not using the Emperor's Children.. They are not a ranged army, whatever people will tell you. Their real strength is in the warp scream.. which just isn't explained at all by squat fluff.. Fat little dwarves can strike as fast as eldar? Yeah... :rolleyes:
Personally.. I would use iron warriors. They have the big war machines, including a proper artillery piece which can be proxied as whatever big rolling mortar machine takes your fancy, and the vindicator, which is the closest space marines get to having a siege tank.. very squat. Obliterators are difficult to explain.. though of course, squats can get the obliterator virus too.. They might actually grow to normal size!
If you want squads with lots of heavy bolters, use havocs together with the IW tanks and fill up your four heavy support choices, you'll still have room for a squad of bikes, a minned out HQ and a couple of small troop squads, perhaps equipped for tankbusting and hidden in cover at the back of the board. Should be quite interesting.
the problem I have with IW apart from the 4 HS 1 LS ratio (which is not mandatory IIRC) is more or less the same with SM, they do not give me enough of the "resilient" feeling i get from other armies. and they do not even get the upside in term of bikes, gyros and so on
now I know I'll have to make compromises, but I'm still struggling against hard reality in search of a solution to my dilemma
things being as they are a good solution could be cult-DG (with flying possessed posing as bikes.... please don't laugh too hard at this), non-cult DG (with bikes as bikes and obliteators as batteries) or SM (any suggestion on traits?).
The first is my preferred even if not satysfying from each and evry point of view (see? i have still to come to terms with the hard reality of compromises) while the other two are tied for second best.
T4 and a 3+ save is still pretty resiliant. In fluff terms, look at the units which have toughness 4.. space marines can be shot through the heart and not pause for breath, orks can sew their own heads back on when they get decapitated, necrons are made of self repairing metal, tau battlesuits are huge and have a high tech impact resistant structure. T4 is nothing to sniff at. Combined with a 3+ save, toughness 4 is incredibly good. Fluffwise, units with T5 tend to be completely inhuman.. death guard are actually undead, their organs are all redundant, eldar wraithguard are made of one of the toughest materials in the galaxy and, again, have no organs or vital components. In short.. I think toughness 5 is too tough.Originally Posted by MR
If you mean resiliance in tactical terms, don't forget that numbers = resiliance. A squad of 10 regular marines is more resiliant than a squad of 5 death guard, by a big margin. 100 guardsmen, in game, are hugely resiliant. because it takes so much effort and firepower to get to the important stuff.
Don't get tied down into thinking you need toughness 5 or 2 wounds to play a 'resiliant' army. The best way to play a resiliant army, I think, would actually be to play word bearers and get as many marine squads as humanly possible.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; December 27th, 2006 at 17:53.
so no DG, no EC.... what do I have? SM, IW and SW (oh and yes LATD and Orks but...) hmmmmm
steady, shooty, able to hold the ground.... hmmmmmm munch munch munch
cool Idear Using the proxy thing for squats , I just kinda skimed your post but chek out this link http://www.warmongerclub.com/articles/chaossquats1.html this guy has some nifty idears and pics for a similar project.
Thought for the day: A Burning Heretic , Will brighten the Decor of any room.