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I'm currently comparing the overall effectiveness of a 6-man Squad of Khorne Terminators vs. two Dreadnoughts. Here's where I am.
6 Khorne Terminators, with two Reaper Autocannons, would cost 286 points. They would bring with them 4 autocannon shots a turn (with rerolls), 18 power attacks base (24 on the charge), 2+ armour/5+ invulnerable save, and would generally be able to tear it up both in shooting and CC. I figure they'd average maybe 3-4 hits a turn on their target. And they can deep strike.
Two Dreadnoughts, with twin-linked Autocannons and Possession, costs 260 points. They'll be able to lob the same amount of shots as the Terminators (with rerolls), have 6 STR10 power attacks combined, but will be two very big gleaming targets to the enemy and will most likely suffer the brunt of any/all first turn shooting by heavy weapons. They can also be easily taken out in CC by fists.
I'm leaning a bit more towards the Terminators. First, obviously, because I really like Terminators. Tactically they have an advantage as their deep-striking ability means they can teleport into nice positions and immediately shoot off 4 shots the same turn, and hopefully after surviving the initial counter-attack will be able to further move and shoot and charge and such from a good position. Dreadnoughts on the other hand will just.. kinda.. sit there.. and get shot at. A lot. Atleast with the Terminators, they'll be able to suffer 4 casualties while still keeping the Reaper Autocannons to shoot with (and being Fearless, will never run from shooting). The only risky part is their cost.. that's a lot of points to spend on such a smallish unit. Although its only 26 more points than two Dreads, their effectiveness over the Dreads is questionable (if it exists at all). The idea is that a unit of these Terminators would effectively replace the need for both the Bloodletters and the Dreadnoughts, but I need further counsel on it. That's where you lovely folks come in!
Would said squad of 6 Termies, with two autocannons, be a good use of 286 points to make a deep-striking anti-tank team that is still capable of tearing people a new one in CC? Also, for comparison purposes, an 8-daemon unit of Bloodletterse costs 208 points, with 16 power attacks base (less than the 6 Termies), no shooting, power armour equivilent and suffer from Daemonic Instability. The biggest thing I fear with the Termies is teleporting them stupidly so they get torn apart the very next turn, or them scattering off the table or into a solid chunk of granite.
Anyway, specific help i'm looking for is whether they're actually A) worth taking instead of Dreadnoughts and Bloodletters; worth taking AT ALL. Pretend Predators don't exist; I just want to know their anti-tank potential compared to Dreads, and their combat potential compared to Bloodletters. Thanks!
Takka n' Wakka's Dakka Attacka! 33W / 6L / 1D
To answer a few, a deep striking termi squad is generally not considered a cost effective way of dealing with vehicles. Deep striking them means the unit is not going to produce the consistency required for timely tank busting, namely because the unit isn't on the board.
As for which one to take, I'd probably avoid both options. Termis are fire magnets and have a difficult time making their points back. Dreads don't produce the fire power for their points when compared to a predator. Overall, I would probably take the termis, because they are an elite slot, and chaos has few good elite slots other than obliterators. This would free up heavy slots for havocs and preds. Of course, it also highly depends on your point value. In higher points games (let's say 2000+) termis become more viable).
The big problem with termis is that you are paying for a unit that is good at both ranged and c.c.. This equates to a very versatile, but not a cost effecient model, because there will always be some ability of the termi that you won't be using. Bloodletters, as you mentioned, are a very acceptable substitute for c.c. termi capability. They produce the same number of attacks, can charge directly after being summoned (which potentially eleminates incoming ranged attacks against them), and are a good deal cheaper. Regarding your attacks listed in your post for termis: I'm not sure how you came to 4 attacks per termi. It should be 3. Eight bloodletters will offer the same numer of attacks on the charge as 6 termis.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
Thanks a bunch for the tips!
I don't know where you think I've got them down as 4 attacks each. I said they have 18 attacks base -- that's 3 per model -- and 24 on the charge.And yeah I would only consider them in 2000pt games or more... I just really like Terminators, more than Dreads and Preds....They would bring with them 4 autocannon shots a turn (with rerolls), 18 power attacks base (24 on the charge),...
Takka n' Wakka's Dakka Attacka! 33W / 6L / 1D
I believe the answer to your question is two-fold:
First of all, it is about army composition. If your force could use the distraction, or other pressure techniques that the Dread can bring, then go for it.
Second is your personal choice. If your tactics just don't handle Dreads well, or if Dreads can't handle your tactics, then the choice should be easy. I personally do not like them for their Frenzy rolls. I prefer dependability over all else, create my armies based on that single concept, and therefore the Dreadnought does not fit in.
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Wow..that's an original way of looking at it. I had never considered that.
Thanks for that misanthrope :-)
My problem with terminator still comes from when I just surrounded them in gaunts and nibbled them to death... but in otherways, they're much more durable...
Something else to keep in mind is the fact that Dreads do not get saves. Once an opponent scores a glancing hit, you have to sit back and hope it's a "Crew Shaken/Stunned" roll instead of a "Target Destroyed" roll. With Terminators, you get the 2+/5+ saves, and never understimate that invulnerable save. I know I play GKs, but the basic principles are the same; In my last battle, I was failing armour saves left and right with my terminators, but when I had to take the invulnerable saves, especially when they were embroiled in Close Combat, I kid you not I made over 90% of those saves. It took 3 turns to finally knock that squad out, and they had already obliterated two enemy squads and two commanders in that time. Since the terminators here are Khornate, they'd obviously have done much better.
Some quick pros for each
Can't be wiped out by a single squad
Can perform "scissor" maneuvers on single squads with reaper cannons
Low Strength weaponry and non AP 1 weapons are largely useless
Can divide fire when the situation calls for it
Offer a psychological advantage (OH SNAP, HUGE LUMBERING MONSTERS!)
Strength 10 attacks are amazing against most anything, including vehicles
Can save against enemy hits
More close combat attacks = shredded enemy units
Higher survivability of the reaper autocannon
One kill does not halve the squad's effectiveness
Deepstriking is a tactical option
Can be used to summon daemons
It's hard to add anything after those two posts, so I'll only say this based on my experience.
Dreadnoughts are not good enough to be worth spend an heavy support slot for each of them. They would be ok if they would occupy any other slots than heavy support. The dread is slow, cost a lot and usualy doesn't accomplish much. I use a dread un my death guard and I've learned how to use it adequatly, but it rarely make it's points back. I tried different configuration, an the best results have been obtained with the following :
Plasma Cannon, Havoc Launcher, Daemonic Mutation. You get 3 template shots, 6 on frenzie and you don't loose any close combat attacks.
Terminators are better. Much more better. You can expect them to survive a walk on the battlefield. They come relatively cheap and are easily upgradable. They are an excellent stand alone unit and are even more efficient when used in coopération with infiltrating units (Teleport homer).
CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7
I have to say i dispise chaos dreadnaughts. They dont have the firepower or speed or their loyalst counterparts, they also are not dependable.
A dreads main 3 drawbacks,
1) AV 12 or 13 with mutated hull, which means its nough overly durrable and 1 shot can knock it down. This is why armies with 6 carnifexs work, but regular marine armies with 6 dreads dont. 1 Good shot (or 3 or so decent ones) and its done for. 1 Good shot isnt going to kill a whole squad of teminators (unless its a demolisher cannon, in which case the termi's shouldnt be near it)
2) They are slow, lumbering 6" a turn a dread is easily avoided by a good deployment at best it gets into close combat by turn 3-4. S10 cant do anything if its not in Close combat, as said before a decent round of shooting will imobilize or destroy it. I once used mine and got into combat turn 1 after bloodlusting & charging some infiltrators, but thats the exception and not the rule.
3) fire frenzy - blood lust. Ever time (save the example above about bloodlusting some infiltrators) this has always been a disadvantage for me. I want a reliable unit that will listen to me. Not blood lust for 2 turns after an emptry devilfish.
As a side note im not really sure about this "psychological advantage" that everyone speaks of. I tend to look at chaos dreads as free VP. They arnt as good in combat as daemons or a lord or anumber of other things, and arnt as good at shooting as havocs or a preditor.
In my opinion you want high volume of autocannon shots, take havocs.
Want close combat. take a Greater daemon, lord, daeomns, possessed, chosen.....(the list goes on)
sense this is asking for just a direct comparison between Dread, Termis, & Bloodletters im gonna add onto ZARIUMS list (SEE ABOVE)
Advantages of termis over dread
-More Durable - Immune to the "one shot one kill"
-Faster with blood rage. (i play slaaneshi but i think termis still get the blood rage d6")
-Chain Fist/Power fist = S8, will deal with most problems as well as S10 dread.
Advantages of dread over termis
- 2 things to shoot at means dividing fire.
Last edited by lack0fbettername; January 5th, 2007 at 19:41.
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