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So I'm posting again on my friends TMC list. I've been able to defeat it using way more lascannons than you ever should have, but lately he has been complaining that when he plays myself or my space marine friend that all we do is sit back and shoot from a corner. To which I replied that it would be death charging at his TMC wall with psychic choir and hordes of genestealers behind.
In an effort to make the game more enjoyable for both of us, what are my real alternatives here? I think that if I take an assault force I am going to need at least 12+ marines in each squad since I'll be footslogging to the monstrous creature wall, then getting into combat with a fex and then probably being assaulted by genestealers. The largest problem that I actually see is the psychic choir that will decimate my leadership.
I am trying not to be too cheesy in this list and taking a million plague swords, but I'm not very well versed in making a good assault based list at the 1500+ point level. What legion and unit types would you think work the best, Khorne Berzerkers?
All in all, I think its futile as assault armies tend to do poorly against TMC but hey, why not give it a shot?
Tell him he better get used to people sitting in the corner against him.
Anyway, I'm assuming you play chaos so here's some things to consider:
Obliterators. Perhaps the most annoying thing for us Tyranids. Have them deepstrike behind MCs and release a torrent of plasma shots. Three obliterators rapid firing plasma should be able to bring down any MC short of a walking tyrant with three guard.
Predators. Its assault cannon is good for potentially knocking off a wound or two. Of course, if there's a sniperfex, it'll probably be shot up pretty well.
Terminators. Chaos terminators are slightly weaker versions of Obliterators but get much more weapons, plus they have good staying power with a 5+ save. Dropping them behind the MCs or between the gaunt swarm and the MCs is a good disruption tactic. Plus powerfists hurt carnifexes well.
Anyway, you'll have to give us a little info. First, how many points? Second, what is his army composition? How many MCs? What are the MCs tooled out for?
I'm inferring that there are probably five MCs and as much as seven (2 HQ, 2 HS, 3 Elite).
I'm guessing he has several assault forms since, generally, Godzilla lists are shooty and don't really complain if you just sit back. Heck, the standard space marine armor save is usually better than the cover save, so cover really isn't an issue.
Anyway, the weakness in the MC army is the carnifexes. Hive Tyrants are dangerous, but the winged versions don't fit in that well to a MC wall. Now, he might be fielding it, but if he does, he's keeping it out of LoS, so... Anyway, carnifexes have high toughness and a high number of wounds. However, the elite carnifexes will only ever have a marine save. So take a lesson from us and take like a Havoc squad with four heavy bolters and force the tyranid player to make multiple saves on the carnifex.
If you're having trouble against the genestealers, take a few defilers and spam pie plate barrages.
As for Space Marines, I'm sure you know the standard drill. Lascannons, assault marines with three plasma, landspeeder tornados, whirlwinds, and so on.
Anyway, the arguably "best" army to use against Tyranids and perhaps the psychic choir is Sisters of Battle. You can take allied IG for some lascannon support, Dominion squads can serve up FOUR melta shots or even four flamer shots, the Inquisitorial Storm Troopers can be made into a 5 man squad with three plasma for something like 80 points, and an exorcist or two has a VERY good chance of killing at least one MC a round. Plus, of course, the SoB close combat specialists are nothing to sneeze at. Twenty Sisters Repentia are just insane as are those weird machine things with the 4+ invul save.
"Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of taking it away." Sephiroth, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
What does a Tyranid player expect you to do? Charge forward into the Genestealer lines? That's kind of unfair.
Why doesn't the Tyranid player vary his list with multiple coordinated Lictor attacks or something?
Or, give him a deal... say you'll be on the assault if he'll play Omega-level/Escalation. Why give him all the TMCs on the board? I might find that boring if the entire Tyranid horde is always on the board from turn 1.
Khorne Berserkers get a lot of attacks... but Genestealers don't have better than a 4+ save, and they will almost always hit first compared to your Berserkers even if you do charge with Furious Charge. I'd prefer Rubric Marines if I were to fight Genestealers in CC... I know I'm hitting last anyway. Rubric Terminators would hit back even harder.
Dealing with TMCs in assault... Carnifexes, with their combination of high Toughness & relatively good armor saves & plenty of wounds, why get up close? The Berserkers might do better here, though, as their basic attacks will neuter over-costed extended carapace... although I'd still take Havoks/Devastators with some Missile Launchers to punish him if any TMC doesn't have carapace. Or maybe a Defiler that can also punish a 3+ save. Rubric Marines/Terminators... not as helpful here because of the Carnifex's high S.
And Tyrants... they are more do-able in assault if the Tyrants aren't made for close combat... but when you have things like Toxic Miasma and/or Adrenal Glands +WS, your basic Space Marine WS isn't so helpful. Rubric Marines & Terminators probably do okay here.
The psychic chior list is a really nasty one.
Especially if he really does in fact sit back with his genestealers specifically for the counter charge. My first instinct would indeed be to sit back and shoo the crap out of everything.
If you really want to beat him in CC, then the answer is Powerfists... lots of powerfists.
Power weapons won't do you any good since even gaunts will be going before you(forget about beating genestealers initiative)
My space wolves did VERY well against the choir/TMC genestealer list by overwhelming with powerfists.
Here's what I reccomend. 12 to 15 man squads with the hidden fist, daemonic mutation, spikey bits. What's the specifics on the choir, is it a "leadership" or a "morale" check needed? If its a morale check, any fearless(khornate) would simply ignore it, but if its a "leadership check" then MoCU is the way to go.
The idea is to attack with 2 or more squads a piece and surround and pound the big stuff, and hope to do good damage back with the fists against the stealers.
Packing them in rhinos(10 man squads) is also a good way to go. if you move 6 over 6, all of a sudden his stealers need 6's to hit, then 6's to rend(I find those better odds than having my marines assaulted by them.
Hah, here's a funny alternative: take 9 obliterators using IW(I rarely ever ever reccomend this) and deep strike them next to the genestealers and use the flamers to roasty cripy them, a good ol' bar-b que.
W/D/L Eleventy trillion billion/NONE/ NONE - I am STILL rulezor!
WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!
Well the problem with Psychic Scream is that it is a leadership check, not morale... this means that the Fearless effect from god specific marks and the Mark of Chaos Undivided is useless. I really don't think assaulting his army is going to work too well, and I have told him that sitting back and shooting is the only real option when he hides his genestealers behind his fexes to be counterattack units. Even if I do manage to come up with a good approach to his list, I'm afraid it will be a one trick pony. Sadly enough, I think the one trick ponies are the only lists that do well against TMCs... railgun heavy, IW lascannon heavy, etc.
At any rate, I am thinking that LatD might be the best way to go. Even if he has all those big bad creatures it will be hard to kill off an all infantry LatD list with 6 squads with 2 powerfists per. The other option I was thinking is just as you said... probably a couple 12 man squads with Power Fists and counterattack, two lieutenants, and some obliterators (i don't have any rhinos). I'm going to stay away from heavy support options since they aren't very mobile and taking a dreadnought is a death wish.
I think I will mull this over a little more and post a list shortly... how well do you think a chosen supersquad or two would do? Two 5-man full power fist flight or speed marines? They'd destroy his big creatures but be horribly susceptible to the counter charge from geneastealers... plus i can't ignore the forward aggression of his gaunts.
Oh well, this looks like it will be a fun challenge.
While it's true that your Leadership will still be reduced, the Psychic Choir itself doesn't cause any checks. The Choir wins by lowering your Leadership low enough that Morale checks will cause your troops to flee, or can be pinned by Carnifices totting Barbed Stranglers.
Fearless = immune to Morale.
Fearless = immune to pinning.
So I really don't see why you're having so many problems. Take some Predators with AC/HBs, DP, and MH and watch him squirm. AP4 the crap out of his Genies and then slam some Plague Marines or Berzerkers into his TMCs.
In all honesty, Chaos is probably the hardest army for a TMC Choir list to go up against.
Agreed. TMC lists spell doom for Necrons and others.
But for Chaos, it's simply another hurdle.
As mentioned above, I think the answer lies in our basic troop choice. Get those power fists on.
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric