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I realize on this board that most everyone chooses Daemonic Possession over Mutated Hull. Are there any numbers to support this or argument? I am curious if it is dependent on the armament of the opponent, for example if you fight space marines with lascannons, eldar/dark eldar with lances, or an army like Tyranids with no real armor penetrating weapons.
The reason I ask is I'm not so sure DP is the best upgrade on my tanks against Tyranids, but I think it works well against my SM friend. I'd just like to see the math behind it if anyone has it readily available. Thanks.
I like mutated hull i mean why wouldnt you want your tanks with more armour.
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D. Possession is one of the most useful vehicle upgrades you have access to - basically, better extra armour.
The reason most people take it over Hull is because Hull is so expensive. The only vehicle I've ever considered giving Hull to is the Predator, and only after I give it D. Possession.
If you have the points to put Hull on, without compromising the rest of your list, go for it. But don't put it on things like Dreadnoughts, Rhinos, etc. - it's too expensive, and only makes them slightly more resilient. AV14 for the Predator, however, is nice.
on the armour front, 1 doesn't really make that much difference. Especially with lance weapons, monstrous creatures' attacks and melta weapon etc.
But take a look on the glance and penetrate damage table.
Almost every entryt has crew stunned or shaken.
You may survive the blow because of your increased armour turning it into a glancing hit... but if you can't use the vehilce for the next turn, it may as well be taken out of the game.
The vehicle rules are all a bit too lucked based for my liking. Daemonic possession helps to keep your dreads and preds alive and kicking, even when they get limbs and weapons blown off. Very important in keeping up the pressure.
I'm not saying that mutated hull is bad, quite the contrary. But s Lost Nemesis advised.. there are better things to get with your points.. Daemonic possession being one of them.
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric
First, it depends on who you're facing. Certain armies demand various upgrades.
Tyranids demand Deamonic Possession. Their main form of anti-tank is Venom Cannons, Warp Blasts, MC attacks, and Rending. +1 AV doesn't help much against MC hits, Rending hits, or Strength 10 attacks, but Daemonic Possession gives Venom Cannons fits.
(Most) Orks demand Mutated Hull. This typically depends on what kind of Ork player you're facing, but the majority I've ever seen rely heavily on Rokkits for anti-tank. Crushing AV14 Predators with only Rokkits is a right pain.
Eldar and Dark Eldar demand Daemonic Possession. Mutated Hull is usually wasted, due to Lances.
However, assuming we're not meta-gaming, we will have to choose before hand. Since we rarely have the luxury of knowing who we'll be playing against, we build our lists to take on all comers equally.
At least, we should be, right?
So, you have to look at a few factors:
Daemonic Possession is two-thirds the price of Mutated Hull. That's pretty significant. It amounts to boosting the Toughness of your Lord, giving another attack to your Champion, or any number of things.
Another thing to consider is that most people will always take Smoke Launchers and Extra Armour on all vehicles, regardless of type. The two upgrades are simply too good and cheap to pass up. However, Daemonic Possession makes both of these upgrades rather pointless. EA is self-explanatory, Smoke Launchers less so. You should be firing each turn with your tank anyways, so firing your Smokes is generally reserved for ensuring your tank that is worth Victory Points survives the last round.
This means that Daemonic Possession is actually five to eight points cheaper than what you see listed in the Codex.
Daemonic Possession is useful against all armies. Mutated Hull is effective against most armies, but not all. As stated earlier, Eldar and Dark Eldar laugh at the wasted points.
It's almost important to note that Daemonhunters recieve a slight benefit against tanks that have the Daemonic Possession upgrade, but not really something worth losing sleep over.
Daemonic Possession also has the Transport drawback, which hurts when considering Rhinos and Land Raiders. Dreads and Predators are obviously immune to this drawback.
What Vehicles should have what?
Rhinos: Nothing. Limit your upgrades to Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers.
Defiler: Indirect Fire if you want it to live. Mutated Hull if you want it to absorb fire from your army.
Land Raiders: Neither. Damn thing is expensive enough as is. Mutated Hull gives no benefit, and DP removes the transport ability and makes it more expensive than it needs to be.
The toughest two for last...
Dreads: Tough call. I prefer Daemonic Possession, simply because I expect my Dread to take hits. Daemonic Possession will prevent the effects of half of those hits, which keeps him moving. Mutated Hull is fair, but the jump from AV12 to AV13 isn't nearly so big as the jump from AV13 to AV14.
Predator: This is even tougher than the Dread. The AV14 will make you immune to S7 attacks, which includes Autocannons and Plasmas. That's a pretty big deal. Even Strength 8 attacks (Tank-Hunting Autocannons, Missile Launchers) have a hard time dealing any scoring hits. You still have to deal with other forms of anti-tank, though.
In this case, I still prefer Daemonic Possession. It's cheaper and more reliable. Even if my tank does take a hit, I can usually count on it not debilitating it, and it'll still be firing next turn. I think that's the most important thing - keeping the tank firing. The more rounds your tank is shooting, the more VPs you're scoring.
For instance, let's take a look at a Lascannon that managed to roll a 5 for Armour Penetration against a Predator, and rolled a '3' on the damage charts.
With Daemonic Possession, the tank is hit with a Penetrating hit and is immobilized, but the DP prevents the Stunned portion. Since my tanks generally are stationary anyways, this is no big loss, and my tank is still firing back next round.
Against Mutated Hull, the tank suffered a Stunned result, and is stuck not doing anything for a round. Might as well be a hunk of metal by that point. But at least it's still worth half of it's VPs, at least until it gets shot again.
Okay, this turned into a long winded post. So let me summarize.
Daemonic Possession is effectively half the points of Mutated Hull, and works all the time. Therefore, it is better.
:::posted the same time as Karmoon & Caluin:::
As Lost Nemesis said, D.P. is cheaper; but that's not the only reason I prefer it over M.H.. Eldar, for instance, have a bright lance, which reduces all armor that's better to a '12', to a '12'. You can see quite easily how M.H. wouldn't cut it against such weapons. D.P., however, remains just as effecitve.
Predator -Vs- Railgun: Railguns mountd on skimmers can easily penetrate a predator with M.H. Of course, the skimmer must maneuver to the side of the predator, but this usually ins't an issue. Since the railgun has a 10S, increasing the side armor of a predator from 11 to 12 isn't much of a deterrent. However, D.P. remains just as an effective regardless of the strength of the weapon. For this reason, D.P. is usually a more consistent upgrade for keeping your vehicle alive.
I can't remember off the top of my head the damage charts for 'glancing' and 'penetrating', so take the following informations with a grain of salt:
Here are some numbers on the effectiveness of D.P.. Against glancing blows, D.P. negates 33% of the dice rolls. Against penetrating, D.P. negates 16%. Also with a predator configured with an autocannon turret and lascannon sponsons, you'll find that 'vehicle imobilised' ins't an issue, since the predator doesn't move anyways. In effect this predator upgraded with D.P. retains all of its offensive power against 50% of the glancing rolls; with penetrating it retains all of its offensive power against 33% of the rolls.
Contrary to Lost Nemesis' suggestions, IMHO Mutated Hull works better on dreads than preds (though I still prefer D.P.). Since landspeeders and the likes can maneuver around and take side shots at the predator, against most tank busting weapons, the predator will take a hit regardless of whether the armor is 11 or 12. Dreads, however, are significantly affected by M.H., which boosts their front and sides to 13, effectively giving them the staying power of the front side of a non-upgraded predator.
Last edited by Rabbit; February 4th, 2007 at 02:52.
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