Does the Darkblade count when calculating Instant Death? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Now with STFU flames! Caluin's Avatar
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    Does the Darkblade count when calculating Instant Death?

    Anyone who knows me well enough knows that I love the good debates. From the Mark of Tzeentch models with Veteran Skills to the legality of Khornate bikers with melta weapons, I love 'em all.

    But we've been slacking, people! Slacking! So time to stir things up. Here's the question I pose to you -

    "Does the Darkblade count when calculating Instant Death?"

    Okay, a bit of backstory while you all quickly answer "Of course, dumbass." I was reading over some tacticas written by others, when I happened across one concerning Chaos Lords and proper outfitting. The tactica was pretty crap, with many mistakes and obvious errors, but one thing struck me as a diamond amongst the coal. The article writer mentioned that the Darkblade does not increase the bearer's strength. It only raises the Strength value when resolving To Wound rolls and Armour Penetration rolls. To see exactly what I mean, check out page 19 of the Chaos Codex. The important thing to note is that the Darkblade is not a permanent increase in Strength.

    So at what point do you check for Instant Death? Is it during the To Wound roll resolution? Or does it come after? If it comes after, then the bonus strength has since 'faded' and no longer counts, right?

    Now, I've already talked to one of my cohorts about this, and we came to our own conclusion about it. We both decided it'd be a good idea to bring this to all of you, so everyone could comment and have a say, and get some differing opinions on it. I'm simply curious to hear what everyone else has to say about it. Obviously, the easy answer is just 'Yes' but I want to hear why you think it's a 'Yes.' Or why your world is suddenly shattered. Or why you think this question is pointless. Which is sort of is, but it's all for fun.

    And who knows? We might just have to retool our Darkbladed Lords.

    I'll chime in later with the conclusion I came to earlier.



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  3. #2
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    Reading the rules, i think that technically you're right. The 'Instant Death' effect takes place during the 'Remove Casualties' step of the shooting phase.

    But seriously, man, that's retarded. Damn GW editors.... Don't let this get out.

  4. #3
    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    Excellent discovery, Caluin!

    My thoughts:

    The Darkblade still inflicts instant deaths. Why? Cuz the codex says that the strength bonus from the Dark Blade comes into affect when resolving for wound rolls or Armor Penetration rolls. Unless I'm completely off base, instant deaths are determined during the same step (or sub-step) wherein the chanced to wound are rolled.

    Other implications: With regard to D.E. Wyches, they have a special ability that reduces an enemy model's W.S. by half, if the enemy model has a strength less than 6. So, the obvious question is whether the DarkBlade raises the wielder's strength. I would have to say that legalistically, the Darkblade would not raise the wielder's strength, because it only increases strength for the purposes of resolving wound rolls and Armor Penetration rolls.
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  5. #4
    Member KingPin's Avatar
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    Even though instant death is not calculated during the to wound stage as previously stated I still think it may inflict instant death. Why you ask, because the model was still wounded with the increased strength. There would be no real sense in calculating a wound with one strength and then for some reason the strength of the hit inflicted is less when looking at instant death. Lets look at it this way, Dark blade increases someone strength to X+Y(X being base, Y being increase), model attacks with strength X+Y and wounds them with said strength. Why on earth would the instant death be calculated with a strength that never actualy hit the model? So in conlusion I think dark blade should still be allowed to instakill with the increased strength.
    40,000- 7,000 Points Chaos Space Marines=18 and 17
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  6. #5
    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    946 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by KingPin View Post
    Even though instant death is not calculated during the to wound stage as previously stated I still think it may inflict instant death.
    Oops. That's right. Thanks for correcting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingPin View Post
    Why you ask, because the model was still wounded with the increased strength. There would be no real sense in calculating a wound with one strength and then for some reason the strength of the hit inflicted is less when looking at instant death. Lets look at it this way, Dark blade increases someone strength to X+Y(X being base, Y being increase), model attacks with strength X+Y and wounds them with said strength. Why on earth would the instant death be calculated with a strength that never actualy hit the model? So in conlusion I think dark blade should still be allowed to instakill with the increased strength.
    You're right, it doesn't make sense based upon the spirit of the rule. However, strictly based upon the wording, it seems that a model wielding the Darkblade only gains the +2 strength during the step when wounds and armor penetration are determined. Any additional steps that follow would then not be subject to the strength bonus conferred by the Darkblade.

    Taken as a whole, I still must maintain that the Darkblade strength bonus is used to tally instant kills; and that the issue has formed from a G.W. linguistical brain-fart, and a smelly one at that.
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  7. #6
    Member KingPin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit View Post
    the issue has formed from a G.W. linguistical brain-fart, and a smelly one at that.
    Ha rabbit, you make me laugh.
    40,000- 7,000 Points Chaos Space Marines=18 and 17
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  8. #7
    skate to live. double.bind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingPin View Post
    There would be no real sense in calculating a wound with one strength and then for some reason the strength of the hit inflicted is less when looking at instant death.
    Toughness is calculated differently on the to wound roll than it is for instant death.

    For example Oblits are toughness 5 against the strength of a weapon to determine number of wounds, but only toughness 4 to determine instant death.

    Why toughness, but not strength?

    Because it specifies that it adds strength in the wound roll, I think there is theoretical ground to argue instant death on a model with a darkblade can only occur under unmodified strength, not with the strength plus two.
    Last edited by double.bind; February 4th, 2007 at 07:29.

  9. #8
    Big fish in a little pond raytard22's Avatar
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    my take is this...

    the instant death rule states

    "if a creature is wounded by something which has a strength value of double their Toughness value or greater fail thier save, they are killed outright and removed as a casualty"

    the dark blade rule states

    "adds +2 to the bearer's strength when resolving to wound rolls"


    As long as the "something" wound was double S for the roll to wound, then it would follow that the model would be killed outwright by instant death. The instant death rule checks at armour save phase, BUT reverts back to the strength of the original attack. So i say dark blade flickers with evil warp energy for a moment giving the champion improved strength to do the killing blow to multi wound models...

  10. #9
    Sadomachiatto Karmoon's Avatar
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    I think that Dark Blade does cause instant death. My reasoning for this comes from Raytard, Rabbit and Kingpin's posts.

    So why the freaky description for the dark blade?

    Simple. If a Chaos Lord with just a dark blade was to encounter a wytch, while he's wounding and killing at increased strength, it doesn't make his personage that increased strength. So Wytch weapons would have an effect on him and half his weapon skill.

    Another example would be if the Lord were to be the selected meal of the Red Terror. If he just has a Dark Blade, then he would count as his natural state for eatery purposes. He would still, however, wound the Red Terror on 3s.

    So on the attack, he's definitely +2 strength, and there's no rule lawyering around that. But for other purposes, the Dark Blade doesn't count. Which makes a lot of sense for GW surprisingly.
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  11. #10
    Member KingPin's Avatar
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    Not to nag on the same point again but maybe I can better explain this in a different way to convert the non-believers. Lets take an example out of real life. Say I am in a fight with Karmoon(sorry karmoon had to pick someone) and its only a fistfight. At one point I pull out a gun in said fight(darkblade increase in strength) and shoot karmoon. Now why when calculating whether he would die or not would the calculation be made as if I had just hit him with my fist instead of a bullet like I had. I think that should be enough to convince most, and if not I am as bad as getting converts as Jehovas witnesses are.

    Edit: No I really dont want to fight karmoon cus hes an erotic terrorist, I would lose.
    Last edited by KingPin; February 4th, 2007 at 20:57.
    40,000- 7,000 Points Chaos Space Marines=18 and 17
    40,000- 2,500 Points Tau Empire=1 and 2

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