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I'm making this thread because I've seen a lot of complaining about Chosen, and I thought I'd try and tackle it. I've spent the last little bit looking at what Chosen have to offer and I've come up with something that I think is interesting.
Essentially I feel that people's disparaging opinions about the Chosen are based on the fact that people expect them to do something they weren't designed for, which is to be uber-squads, be they assault or shooty. Chosen weren't designed for this, essentially. Rather, it seems they were really designed to be Chaos' version of Loyalist Command Squads, and in that reguard I think Chosen are really quite superior. So let's compare Chaos Chosen Retinues with Loyalist Command Squads.
First, at the top, let's compare HQ. On the Chaotic side we get Lieutenants, Lords and Daemon Princes. On the Loyalist side we have Captains and Masters. Captains are essentially the equivilent of our Lieutenants. Same stats (except we get better Ld). The only major difference is that our Lt costs 15 points less than the Captain. Infact, the Captain costs the same as our Lord, who is the statistic equivilent of the Loyalist Master. Following in line with the Lt, the Lord costs 15 points less than this supposed "Master". Then we have the Daemon Prince. Statistically he is by far the superior of the Loyalist Master -- he is stronger, tougher, and better in combat. And he costs the same points as a Master. His only downside is that, being a monstrous creature, he can be shot at by anything and everything, even with his retinue. But that's a small price to pay. Atleast he can't be insta-killed by anything other than a railgun or demolisher cannon.
Gifts and equipment are pretty much the same. Except ours are better. We get a lot of gifts they don't, mainly daemonic gifts and weapons. I'd like to see a Loyalist Master get strength 8 attacks at initiative 5! Anyway, enough about Lords and stuff.
Next is Chaplains. They're pretty cool, mainly because they're Fearless and get Litanies of Hate, and their cool Rosarius gives them a daemon prince's invulnerable save. We can get the same with Word Bearers (except those litanies) for the same cost. Otherwise, we can get an Lt w/ a power weapon and daemonic aura and he'll be nearly as good for less points.
Then there's Librarians, and again I feel we get the better bargain. Although Loyalist Marines generally have really cool powers, we still get some good ones too, and our Psykers are far cheaper. We can get a fully-tooled Sorcerer with some naughty abilities for a good 20% less points than a Librarian, and this includes the Mark of Tzeentch, which ensures 100% cast rate (unless it's dispelled.. err, nulled).
Then we have Greater Daemons... there's nothing really to say here. Bloodthirsters are nearly invincible, and quite capable of simply running up to any squad and kicking them into high orbit. Nothing in the Loyalist arsenal comes close.
Finally we get to the Command Squad itself. Here it's a bit of a toss-up. On the one hand, Loyalist Marines have better weapon options. Well, slightly. They can field a 5-man squad and get two special or heavy weapons. We need to field 6. Oh noes! Alternatively we could field 12 and get 4 special/heavy weapons. The most they can field is 2, even with a 10-man squad! HAH! However, they do get some goodies that we don't. Medics are nice to have sometimes. Standards can also be nice. Company Champions can be okay too. Also, they can give them all Terminator Honors which basically just gives them an extra attack or something. But wait! For the same price we upgrade to Aspiring Champions who have access to arse-loads of gifts and wargear. We can give them all power weapons, or better yet, power fists, or some daemonic gift that will make them breathe fire or boost some stat or give them a 24" charge range. Although this can sometimes be a bad thing, as this really raises the price up to the unreasonable level, which is where most people are turned off (IMO).
One other big bonus we get is our ability to field an incredibly cheap Sorcerer, who is not an IC and therefore can't be picked out by shooting or close combat. What's better, we can field atleast 2, if not 3 of these, fully tooled, for the cost of a single fully-tooled Librarian. And like I mentioned earlier, our psychic powers aren't all that bad. Tzeentch gets some nice ones. Wind and Gift of Chaos are also really cool. Wind is like a super-flamer. Gift is probably my favorite, as it essentially allows you to walk up to your enemy's nice shiny 250pt supermaster with twin-linked power fists and whatever, and on a roll of 5 or 6 he's turned into a slobbering Spawn, who then joins your Chosen and fights for you. What the hell is better than that?! You can also do the same to.. well, anything. Walk up to that cheesy Wraithlord. Turn him into a Spawn. Watch the girly Eldar player cry. The odds are against you but as you can field 2-3 of these Sorcerers for the same price as a Librarian it really increases your odds.
So yeah, that's how I see it. I really don't see anything wrong with Chosen. They're certainly not broken. Their only problem is that they were designed to be used exactly like Loyalist Marine Command Squads, which many people don't want to do. Who plays Chaos just to have a list exactly the same as Loyalist Marines? But anyway, for their intended purpose, these guys sound amazing. By direct comparison, you can field a Lord with Chosen, including Sorcerers and bad-arse dudes and whatnot, who are far better than most Loyalist Command Squads, for less points. It may pain you to field such a duplicated unit, but I'm sure it'll pay off.
I hope this post encourages some thought and discussion!
Last edited by Misanthrope; February 8th, 2007 at 05:06.
Takka n' Wakka's Dakka Attacka! 33W / 6L / 1D
my problem with chosen isnt that i expect them to be as good as their loyalist 'counterparts' is that i expect them to live up to their points cost.
i will agree with you that i think we get the better bargain with our HQ choices. our lords and lts. can be kited out to meet our exsact needs and can be incredibly nasty. i still belive however that the Librarians that space marines have has the edge over our sorcerrer... but i havnt played around that much with psycers.
the thing is... i dont see the advantage to taking chosen except if you want to field some termies.
a command squad for chaos is rather worthless. there are better ways of hiding and blending our HQs then sticking them (and in many cases bogging them down) in a retune. for 3 points more, we get one more LD and some options to kit them out. problem is taken as is they're just overpriced, and taken kitted out they become a fire magnet that wont win back their points.
our regular chaos marine can do the job that chosen can do (cept termies) only cheeper.
++ POSTED SAME TIME AS SILVANEST ++
Good post Misanthrope.
For HQs, there's no shadow of a doubt that Chaos has it going on big time. We have a great number of options, hence beginners pimping their lords out beyond the realms of legality.
I feel that chosen were also supposed to be the chaos equivalent of Veteran Squads.. which isn't possible as every Chaos Marine is a veteran.
The chosen can fill some interesting roles (i like your sorceror idea) but compared with a loyalist veteran/command squad, they're still over costed. Basically, for 1 more point veteran squads get a veteran skill and ATSKNF, albeit it with a worse leadership.
One thing which bugs me immensely is that we can't take any power weapons without having to buy an aspiring champion and then get him a weapon. 20 points is pretty expensive for a power weapon-ed squad member.. admittedly, there is an extra attack too I suppose.
The last problem with chosen, is that they are simply made obsolete by our normal Chaos marine squads. Our normal troop choice more or less just as good as chosen. With an asp champ there's no leadership issue, and they still die just as easily as chosen (unless you're wanting to spend 50-80points per model).
So between these two issues, while you raise some excellent points, the chaos codex is just filled with better options from elsewhere (CSMs and Havocs) who can do the same job for less points.
I rarely ever touch my Elite slots but when i do i choose Possessed everytime.
I too have long wished for a re-vamp of Chosen rules, their base cost is just too high, I understand that they have more options, and that makes them more valuable, but in that case there should be a cost increase on the options, not the base cost of the models. Something like how Havoc squads pay more for heavy weapons than CSM's do. they pay more because they get more out of the weapon, yet they have the same base point cost. Chosen should be 15 points per model.
Much Like Karmoon, I have also long been bugged about the inability of chosen to take power weapons or power fists in addition to their special or heavy weapon options. I think every third chosen being able to take a power weapon for 20 points or a power fist for 25 points would hardly be overpowering and would make the squad a very viable assault option, especially when accompanied by their Chaos lord.
What chosen need to loose is this ability to take multiple champions, its just redundant 90% of the time as tooled up champions are WAY to expensive to have more than one in a squad, having a single champion and being accompanied by a Lord or Lieutenant is enough characters for one squad, Piling four of five characters into a retinue is a SMurf gimmick, and not something that chaos players should do.
Heres another wierd beef I have with Chosen: Loose the wierd rules for how many chosen you can take, It seems like every week im trying to explain to some young chaos player how the rules for fielding chosen work. :wackoust make them a 0-1 choice and give your heroes the option to take an additional squad as a retinue.
one other thing is that in a kult army you can use your chosen to fulfill roles that you otherwise don;t have access to (Nurgle armies benefit from the Terminator reaper cannon for example).
So it is true that theya re expensive, and in a BL and various others they probably don;t see much use, but some Kult armies they work very nicely indeed.
Shut up and play.
speaking to the cult armies, I Never use Chosen only because I get more bang for my buck with a basic beserker. As A Worldeater player , there are very few troop types that can do what my beserker squads can do for the same price.
I have experimented with chosen and my play stlye and just don't have a good niche for them in my army.
Thought for the day: A Burning Heretic , Will brighten the Decor of any room.
I personally think Chosen Aspiring Champions should go down in price, maybe so the total cost (base + upgrade) is 22 points. Kinda like how Nob Bikers don't cost as much as Nobs in Warbike squads. Thing is, Chosen are meant to have "ruled planets, led armies and destroyed civilisations" so entire squads of Chosen with armoury access should be encouraged. Additionally, I'd go a whole lot further with the close combat weapons thing, as I think Chosen should be equipped vaguely like men who can rule planets. How about this line:Of course, there should also be options for marked Chosen to have Mark-appropriate gear, so add these following lines to the Books of Khorne and Nurgle respectively.All Chosen in power armour (even Aspiring Champions) may upgrade their close combat weapon to a power weapon at +5 points, a power fist at +10 points or a lightning claw at +10 points. Chosen so upgraded may not take any ranged weapon upgrades.Originally Posted by KhorneIf anyone can think of any specific cool stuff that Slaaneshi and Tzeentchian Chosen deserve, please post it.Originally Posted by Nurgle
One more thing. This isn't a Chosen-specific problem (actually, it was inspired by the Lost and the Damned army list) but I think there should be a way other than a Khornate Juggernaut for Aspiring Champions to gain Daemonic Essence. If a Mutant Boss can have 2 wounds, then why can't his Chaos Space Marine messiah?
I like Lord pizza's ideas for Legion/Cult specific upgrades for chosen. Heh, I'm warming up to the idea of separate codexes.
20 points for a power weapon upgrade for someone in a squad is totally useless though. I mean, look at the points now.. that's exactly how much it costs to upgrade to champ and then pick up a power weapon.
They cheapened Imperial stuff (like predators) to get in line with cheaper versions in the Chaos codex, so I don't see why it shouldn't work the other way. Every third or fourth legionnaire should be able to get a power weapon/fist for 10 or 15 points without becoming an aspiring champion.
One thing I've always wanted to do with chosen is give them diffrent marks if their black legion retinues. So you would have the champion of slaanesh, the phsyker of tzeench, the hard man of nurgle and the phscho of knorne all in the same squad to represnt them each following diffrent paths and the lord choosing them to represnt their god or legion.
Chosen should also so be toned down, all we get for their extra cost is a better leadership, which we would get if we bought a champ any way.
The reason i don't use 'em is because i can fill any of their roles, except cheaper (unless going termie).
Crimson Fists 0/0/0
Dwarfs 0/0/0 (work in progress)