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Ok so first off I've only tried this tactic once so i'm mainly posting this idea to get feedback from people who've tried it and general opinions about it.
Along with being able to take marks of the gods, two special weapons, and any veteran skills, our standard troops choice also has the sometimes overlooked size option of 5-20.
I frequently review the army list section of this forum and I can count on my fingers the amout of "tourney list" armies where I've seen more then 12 men let alone 15 or 20... I was wondering why this is... I can come up with some solid arguments against taking a 20 man squad but for now i'll focus on the strong points and let the masses sway my opinion
- 4 MEQ casualties before morals
-11 MEQ casualties before it is not a scoring unit
-20 MEQ casualties before your opponent gets full victory points
-20 bolters in one shooting phase produce 4.44 wounds to MEQs 13-24" away and 8.88 to MEQs 1-12" away
-talk about hidden powerfist
-counter attack could be interesting
-necron players use this tactic
The biggest problems with these large squads is that you're investing a substantial chunk of points for a unit that can only target one enemy squad at a time. It also reduces the total numer of special and heavy weapons that your army can tote by investing an inordinate amount of points in basic marine (not always a bad thing, but just something to keep in mind).
For c.c. units, a max squad is very ineffective. For one thing, you won't be able to get all of your marines into c.c.. Plus, you have an enormous point investment into a c.c. unit that can only tie one squad up at a time. This becomes even more problematic when you consider the fact that your opponent will always be tying up more points of your army than you will of his/hers.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
For roughly the same cost of 3 5 pack lascannon teams you get 18 bolters and 2 plasma guns.
the 3 5 packs can do 3x.888 wounds with bolters and 3x.555 wounds with lascannons 13-24"
the 1 20 pack can do 4 wounds with bolters and 1.111 with plasma 13-24"
Most units you shoot at have more than 5 models in them so it's not like the wounds will be wasted. The trade off, raw wound potential vs. the lucky pot shots.
With the CC squad it's kinda hard to sell but you can always charge multiple units and as long as your powerfisted champ is in there doing work then the numbers will help you ensure a victory... Also win once and the chance for extra wounds or sweeping advances is only better as you will outnumber most squads you face.
I think a better comparison would be between these two units:
20 marines with MoCU
* 18 bolters
* 2 plasma guns
OPTION #2 (divided among 2 squads)
8 marines w/ MoCU
*2 plasma guns
*1 aspiring champion with a bolt pistol & a power fist
6 marines w/ MoCU
*2 plasma guns
Option #2 2 has 6 less marines, but twice as many special weapons & also a power fist. Option #2 has more versatility, can fire at multiple targets & can deal with c.c. threats.
As far as the power fist goes, it works just as well medium size squads as it does in a mega-squads. I would argue that the fist works better for it's point value in medium size squads. The problem with having a mega-squad is that you're not gaining any more special/heavy weapons or power weapons. This, for me, is the greatest drawback to these large units, that is, they suck points away that could have been used to create medium squads with special weapons and a power fist.
Good counter-argument. Enjoyed reading it. Rep given for ingenuity.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
You bring up some good points, but allow me to offer some counter points. Instead of one 20 man group, let's use two ten man groups...
Don't get me wrong - it's not a bad idea. It's just more effecient to use smaller squads. You get more Champions, more special weapons, and it's easier to move the squads around. Infiltrating a 10 man squad is tough but doable - infiltrating a 20 man squad is impossible. Not to mention you can't use Rhinos for transports.
I'm not trying to completely shut your idea down. It might be a worthwhile pursuit with Khornate units, but again I stress that the Champions are arguably the most important part of those units.
For TS's it is the more AC's. I need those psychic powers and more than two PF's. In 1000 pts, I can barly get three scoring units anyway. Bigger squads make my force enen...smaller.
I have seen 15 Marine Khorne zerks do wonders.
I appreciate these points ....
OK one last mathhammer example
2x 10 man(Calin) squads @13-24" =2x 1.555 bolter wounds x2 1.111 plasma wounds
This is only a fraction better than the 20 man which also comes at an upwards of a 50pt discount, h2h is another story.
Rabbit, you can charge multiple targets as long as you are in range to do so granted powerfist can only hit one squad but nevertheless it can be done.
Calin, comparing 2 squads to one wasn't what I was trying to do granted your points are true and definately make a rock solid argument for the 2 squads vs the 1... my idea was to compare one squad vs. one squad.... throw multiple squads in, points costs, marks, ect we could argue either way all day...however you hit the nail on the head as to why I don't see large squads in tourney lists.
Imagine you are in a RT tourney playing a mission with reserves and you dump your 40 marines on the table and your opponent places his 2 5 packs of scouts...you get the picture...
I do still believe 20 man squads have a place in a tourny list and I challenge any of you to use one, or more and be successful...To me there's something to be said for a powerfist with a 19 wound buffer, I don't know of many armies that can say they have that....
To be honest, I've also considered putting down a tarpit of 20 infiltrating marines right in their face.
It's 300 points for 20 infiltrating alpha legionairres in their pants, so call it 350 for upgrades (2x special weapon, asp champ - power fist, scary face)
That squad can definiely take a huge amount of licks before getting toppled. IF you infiltrate it right into their face, they can hardly ignore them.
It's stupid and foolish, but I imagine that it would absolutely devastate certain armies and tactics. Man.. with 19/20 rapid firing bolters I'd feel pretty confident in shooting just about anything.
IF a hidden power fist works for 20+ mutants in LatD, what happens when you replace those mutants with Chaos marines?
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric