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  1. #1
    Aesthete honorableSimon's Avatar
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    Blood Frenzy & Movement Modifiers

    Okay, I have been very torn/confused on this issue for a while. Many of the posts that I have read on this topic (especially by Sir Rabbit, whose opinion I would like to hear) seem to conclude that a model (theoretically a Lord) with a MoK and a movement modifier (bike, dæmonic flight, dæmonic speed, etc.) are not subject to blood frenzy. As I have heard it from other sources, the movment modifier simply disallows the extra movement, while still forcing you to attack the nearest model. Here's the Errata entry:


    Q. How does the combination of Berserker Glaive and Blood Rage work
    when your character has Daemonic Flight? Notably does he fly faster when
    subject to Blood Rage.
    A. Flight has precedence, Blood Rage will not make a jump pack fly faster. The
    other Blood Rage effects do continue to apply though. Similar logic applies to
    other special movement modes, in each case no extra movement is gained due
    to Blood Frenzy.


    Am I missing something here? I would like to hear from people as to how they play this (admittedly) vague ruling.

    Also, if I'm not allowed to post Errata for whatever reason let me know ASAP and I will remove it.

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  3. #2
    Now with STFU flames! Caluin's Avatar
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    The easiest way to think about it is by viewing the bonuses and disadvantages of the Mark of Khorne as completely seperate entities. When you read over the Mark of Khorne rules, you'll see each one seperated by a bullet point.

    The Blood Frenzy movement is seperated from the 'Must Assault if able' rule. Other than their reliance upon the Mark of Khorne, they are not related in any way. Extra movement modifiers over ride the Blood Frenzy movement, but all other bonuses or negatives are unchanged.

    So yes - if a Lord with Daemonic Speed moves himself to within 12 inches of a Skimmer, then he must assault it.


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    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by False_Emperor View Post
    As I have heard it from other sources, the movment modifier simply disallows the extra movement, while still forcing you to attack the nearest model. Here's the Errata entry:

    That's right. While a model with both a movement mod and the MoK can move freely during their movement phase without the worry of Blood Frenzying, the model is still required to charge an enemy model that is within range at the beginning of the assault phase.

    Everything else was clarified by Caluin.
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  5. #4
    Aesthete honorableSimon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caluin View Post
    The easiest way to think about it is by viewing the bonuses and disadvantages of the Mark of Khorne as completely seperate entities. When you read over the Mark of Khorne rules, you'll see each one seperated by a bullet point.

    The Blood Frenzy movement is seperated from the 'Must Assault if able' rule. Other than their reliance upon the Mark of Khorne, they are not related in any way. Extra movement modifiers over ride the Blood Frenzy movement, but all other bonuses or negatives are unchanged.

    So yes - if a Lord with Daemonic Speed moves himself to within 12 inches of a Skimmer, then he must assault it.
    Thanks but this isn't really what I'm asking - I understand that a model with the mark of khorne must always assault if able, what I'm wondering about is whether the model/unit has to make the Movement Phase move towards the nearest enemy as per the Blood Frenzy bullet, as the Errata entry says "The other Blood Rage effects do continue to apply though." The problem I have is that "the other Blood Rage effects" could refer to either the other blood frenzy move rules, or the other "Blood Frenzy" rules that any model with a MoK is effected by.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit View Post
    That's right. While a model with both a movement mod and the MoK can move freely during their movement phase without the worry of Blood Frenzying, the model is still required to charge an enemy model that is within range at the beginning of the assault phase.
    I partly started this above, but I'm wondering where you get the justification for not testing for Blood Frenzy at all. Admittedly, the Blood Frenzy can clearly not make a model with a movement mod move faster, but I don't see any reason why it still wouldn't take over all their thoughts, which is why I seem to think the "other Blood Rage effcts" refers to the other effects of being affected by a blood frenzy move, i.e. the whole +d6" movement and the must move towards the nearest unit parts.

    This is especially apparent in the explanatios of why a model with a movement mod can't move any faster. It seems to me like they can't move faster simply because they don't have the physicaly capability to make whatever they have move any faster, which would imply that they're still affected by the blood rage move, they're simply unable to move any faster, which would mean they still have to move erratically.
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    0!=1jumpin'punch'swing jONESIE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by False_Emperor View Post
    ...what I'm wondering about is -
    whether the model/unit has to make the Movement Phase move towards the nearest enemy as per the Blood Frenzy bullet, as the Errata entry says "The other Blood Rage effects do continue to apply though."
    The problem I have is that "the other Blood Rage effects" could refer to either the other blood frenzy move rules (in the extra D6 bulletpoint), or the other "Blood Frenzy" rules that any model with a MoK is effected by (extra attack, fearless, must charge etc etc).
    ah, i know what u mean now!

    all i know is that...

    * the extra D6 movement bulletpoint is over-ridden by superior movement, ie speed, steed etc.

    *you do not have to move closer to the enemy, or test/move towards the enemy, in the movement phase, as the whole bulletpoint is negated if you have paid points for better/enhanced movement.

    justification, i spose, is that you already have a seperate bulletpoint stating you must charge if you are in range- you have enhanced movement, it is easier to implement for you and your opponent. (be it good or bad, depends on the situation! lol). i reckon the whole D6 movement bulletpoint is negated.:yes:

    EDIT: you have cited the Berzerker Glaive in your original question, Berzerker Glaive model MUST D6 Frenzy, he automatically gets it due to the daemon weapon. so, he cant take enhanced movement, because he must frenzy D6- cant have both, and must frenzy D6 = no extra movement speeds.
    Last edited by jONESIE; February 23rd, 2007 at 05:01.
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    Aesthete honorableSimon's Avatar
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    Okay, just as a short preface, this post is going to be very grouchy because I just wrote an enormous response and then LO lagged and I lost the entire thing. :cry: Obviously it's partly my fault for not copying it into notepad or whatever, but I'm still very, very dissapointed.


    Quote Originally Posted by jONESIE View Post
    * the extra D6 movement bulletpoint is over-ridden by superior movement, ie speed, steed etc.

    *you do not have to move closer to the enemy, or test/move towards the enemy, in the movement phase, as the whole bulletpoint is negated if you have paid points for better/enhanced movement.

    justification, i spose, is that you already have a seperate bulletpoint stating you must charge if you are in range- you have enhanced movement, it is easier to implement for you and your opponent. (be it good or bad, depends on the situation! lol). i reckon the whole D6 movement bulletpoint is negated.
    I don't see where you get the justification for those two bullet points. I understand fully that the extra mvoement is lost when a unit has superior movement, but I see no reason at all to disregard the entire bulletpoint, in fact, although the GW team doesn't say much, what it does say is that the unit is still effected by all other Blood Frenzy rules. The reason this is confusing is because "Blood Frenzy rules" could refer to the other rules regarding the additional movement gained from rolling a Blood Frenzy move at the start of the Movement Phase, or all of the Mark of Khorne rules in general. Here is where I would like to argue that we should assume this means all other Blood Frenzy rules regarding rolling a Blood Frenzy move at the beginning of the Movement Phase still apply (below any reference to "Blood Frenzy Movement" is a reference to rolling a 1 or a 2 at the beginning of the Movement Phase, thus being affected by Blood Frenzy - this is a differentiation GW does not make, but which I will use to hopefully clarify the issue):

    Point The First: Syntax & Context
    In the rule in question, the GW team is saying the superior movement would over-rule a specific portion of the Movement Frenzy bullet-point (specifically the portion whre the model/unit with the Mark of Khorne gain additional movement). I think that we could disregard the entire bullet-point in a world where the GW team said that a mode/unit with a movement modifier was not affected by Blood Frenzy at all, while they just say that the model/unit does not recieve the movement bonus

    Point The Second: Fluff & Story
    The explanation offered for why a unit with the Mark of Khorne and superior movement does not recieve additional Blood Frenzy Movement is that s/he cannot make the bike/jump pack move any faster. This explanation implies that the unit still is affected by Blood Frenzy Movement, and that they are trying to make their bike/jump pack/etc. move faster, they are simply unable to because of the namture of their respective equipment. Assuming this is true and the unit is still affected by Blood Frenzy Movement, then there is no reason they would not have to take their move, however shotr or long it may be, towards the nearest enemy. A case where this would not be true would be if the Blood Frenzy Movement rules were worded more like the Blood Angels Black Rage rules, where the Angels take their Black rage movement in a seperate phase, before the Movement Phase begins. In this case they would take their d6" move regardless of their unit/move types, and would only take this d6" towards the nearest enemy, taking the rest of their movement during the Movement Phase in whichever direction they please.

    Point The Final: An Example
    Turn two of a World Eaters vs. T'au game, you have a squad of berzerkers (all with the Mark of Khorne) and a lord (with the Mark and dæmonic flight). The bererkers and the lord are positioned such that the they are both exactly 14" away from a Devilfish and 16" away from a squad of Fire Warriors. At the beginning of the Movement Phase you roll for the squad and the lord and both are effected by the Blood Frenzy Movement. The berzerkers move 8" total towards the 'fish, and are unable to do anything until the next turn, while the lord moves 12" towards the fire warriors and can charge strategically in the subsequent Assault Phase. Now, the only logic I can see to justify this would be that the lord is a higher being and would possess the ability to control his rage and target who he wishes, but this justification appears nowhere in the codex or errata. This leads to confusion as to why a lord, simply because he has dæmonic flight, may control the very same bloodlust that forces a squad of berzerkers to feebly charge at a tank they may not even be able to do damage to.


    Quote Originally Posted by jONESIE View Post
    EDIT: you have cited the Berzerker Glaive in your original question, Berzerker Glaive model MUST D6 Frenzy, he automatically gets it due to the daemon weapon. so, he cant take enhanced movement, because he must frenzy D6- cant have both, and must frenzy D6 = no extra movement speeds.
    I'm going to be frank, I just don't think this is true:

    Point The First: The Actual Wording
    For starters, the Berzerker Glaive rules do not actually say the unit "must" frenzy, it in fact says that it is "automatically gripped" by frenzy. The difference is that the unit may be gripped by Blod Frenzy, but if given movement modifiers he is unable to act upon this bloodlust.

    Point The Second: Precendence
    In the Errata entry I posted in my first entry, the GW Team establishes a precedent for the movement rules to over-rule the Blood Frenzy rules. They say that if a unit has a movement modifier, the bonus movement from Blood Frenzy is ignored and the unit takes the movement from whatever move type is has. The opposite of this would be that the Blood Frenzy rules over-rule the move type rules, in which case the Glaive would force a model to not take additional movement modifiers, but also in which case a model with dæmonic flight would take a 6 + d6" move (instead of the 12" move) as the Blood Frenzy rules would over-rule the wording of the move type rules for units with jump packs (with the fluff being, perhaps, that the unit is to frenzied to even attempt to work their jump packs)

    Point The Final: Fluff & Logic
    Taking into account the explanation given for why unit with superior movement affected by Blood Frenzy do not gain additional movement, fluff may be important for rules-making on some level. This leads me to a critical question: why would a unit, so crazed to get into close combat that he will sacrifice his ability to shoot every round and charge aimlessly towards an enemy as fast as he can ignore the wonderful option of a guarunteed 6 on every Blood Frenzy roll (i.e. 12" movement with dæmonic flight every turn instead of 6 + d6" movement with a normal infantry move)? The only answer to this question I can see is that the model does not want to lose his "additional movement" from the Blood Frenzy, although this is simply not true when he really is getting that additional movement, it's just not variable from turn to turn.


    In the end, if riding a bike allowing a lord to chose where he moves is accepted by the general WarHammer community I will probably accept this strange advantage, but in any case I would liek to know why the WarHammer community accepts it as such.

    Also, I remembered to save my entry this time! Hooray for me!
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  8. #7
    0!=1jumpin'punch'swing jONESIE's Avatar
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    wow, PH fat block of text.....

    ok, i also had lag and forum/busy problems, plus checking the post to see a huge wall of txt aimed in my direction didnt help, niether did the lack of smileys or emotions so also forgive my arrogance.

    Quote Originally Posted by False_Emperor View Post
    I don't see where you get the justification for those two bullet points. I understand fully that the extra mvoement is lost when a unit has superior movement


    goodgood



    Quote Originally Posted by False_Emperor View Post
    but I see no reason at all to disregard the entire bulletpoint, in fact, although the GW team doesn't say much, what it does say is that the unit is still effected by all other Blood Frenzy rules. The reason this is confusing is because "Blood Frenzy rules" could refer to the other rules regarding the additional movement gained from rolling a Blood Frenzy move at the start of the Movement Phase, or all of the Mark of Khorne rules in general.


    well, if it meant the latter, then i would need to pass a test to be fearless, yes? with every unit marked Khorne? now this is a)unreasonable, and b)lacks common sense. you are, in a sense, 'bending' what you are reading.

    look at the entry in the Rulebook for "Deepstrike". see the last 2 sentances. Now, it says "Troops arriving via deepstrike may not move or assault on the turn they arrive." but surely that would mean my terminators, characters, obliterators, raptors etc can deepstrike and move, shoot and assault! the entry refers to troops only!

    same situation with GW not being specific enough to clarify, for those looking into the wording, 'bending' its meaning. Warhammer is supposed to be easily interpreted, of course GW didnt do the best job of it, so you need commonsense to guide you in interpreting the rules.






    Quote Originally Posted by False_Emperor View Post
    Here is where I would like to argue that we should assume this means all other Blood Frenzy rules regarding rolling a Blood Frenzy move at the beginning of the Movement Phase still apply (below any reference to "Blood Frenzy Movement" is a reference to rolling a 1 or a 2 at the beginning of the Movement Phase, thus being affected by Blood Frenzy - this is a differentiation GW does not make, but which I will use to hopefully clarify the issue):

    Point The First: Syntax & Context
    In the rule in question,the GW team is saying the superior movement would over-rule a specific portion of the Movement Frenzy bullet-point (specifically the portion whre the model/unit with the Mark of Khorne gain additional movement). I think that we could disregard the entire bullet-point in a world where the GW team said that a mode/unit with a movement modifier was not affected by Blood Frenzy at all, while they just say that the model/unit does not recieve the movement bonus
    well, we could also disreguard FAQs and other errata in a world where GW clarified everything properly. Remember, "Blood Frenzy" is the title of the entire rule, extra attack, fearlessness, must charge, extra movement etc.

    the entry reads, "start of the movement phase roll a D6 for each unit suffering from blood frenzy ( dont roll for vehicles or extra movement modes)". it doesnt reference movement, it references the test. you dont roll if you have enhanced movement. simple.




    Quote Originally Posted by False_Emperor View Post
    Point The Second: Fluff & Story
    The explanation offered for why a unit with the Mark of Khorne and superior movement does not recieve additional Blood Frenzy Movement is that s/he cannot make the bike/jump pack move any faster. This explanation implies that the unit still is affected by Blood Frenzy Movement, and that they are trying to make their bike/jump pack/etc. move faster, they are simply unable to because of the namture of their respective equipment. Assuming this is true and the unit is still affected by Blood Frenzy Movement, then there is no reason they would not have to take their move, however shotr or long it may be, towards the nearest enemy. A case where this would not be true would be if the Blood Frenzy Movement rules were worded more like the Blood Angels Black Rage rules, where the Angels take their Black rage movement in a seperate phase, before the Movement Phase begins. In this case they would take their d6" move regardless of their unit/move types, and would only take this d6" towards the nearest enemy, taking the rest of their movement during the Movement Phase in whichever direction they please.
    true, getting angry doesnt make your bike go quicker. getting angry doesnt make my uni assignment complete themselves.
    if i had for daemonic goat legs, i could probably get mad and move a little quicker.
    if i was on foot, i would be pretty angry too, and would get sick of watching everything and not participating. so i would charge the closest thing to slay my bloodlust. although, if i had a bike, or enhanced movement, i could get there with relative ease, and set myself up to slaughter everything i wanted.
    this reasoning leads to the fact that anything with enhanced movement doesnt need to get so pissed about footslogging because they WILL get there, hence doesnt test to see if they really want to give up shooting and 'double-time' to the closest action.
    the rule is worded different to the Blood Angels rule because they represent different armies. if marines started getting chaos rules, well, that will disrupt the originality of the army, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by False_Emperor View Post
    Point The Final: An Example
    Turn two of a World Eaters vs. T'au game, you have a squad of berzerkers (all with the Mark of Khorne) and a lord (with the Mark and dæmonic flight). The bererkers and the lord are positioned such that the they are both exactly 14" away from a Devilfish and 16" away from a squad of Fire Warriors. At the beginning of the Movement Phase you roll for the squad and the lord and both are effected by the Blood Frenzy Movement. The berzerkers move 8" total towards the 'fish, and are unable to do anything until the next turn, while the lord moves 12" towards the fire warriors and can charge strategically in the subsequent Assault Phase. Now, the only logic I can see to justify this would be that the lord is a higher being and would possess the ability to control his rage and target who he wishes, but this justification appears nowhere in the codex or errata. This leads to confusion as to why a lord, simply because he has dæmonic flight, may control the very same bloodlust that forces a squad of berzerkers to feebly charge at a tank they may not even be able to do damage to.
    can u picture a Khorne Lord rushing into a gunline alone? well yes, they may be crazy, but not plain stupid- if he goes alone, he may well be replaced by someone else to lead the warriors fourth. now, i reckon he would have fought everyone around/along with him prior to fighting any other race/army. would u like to come to dominance, gain a warband under your control and the patronage of your god, and rush into the open to die? i think slaughtering in Khornes name takes precendence to being slaughtered in Khornes name.

    if i was on foot, i would be pretty angry too, and would get sick of watching everything and not participating. so i would charge the closest thing to slay my bloodlust. although, if i had a bike, or enhanced movement, i could get there with relative ease, and set myself up to slaughter everything i wanted.
    this reasoning leads to the fact that anything with enhanced movement doesnt need to get so pissed about footslogging because they WILL get there, hence doesnt test to see if they really want to give up shooting or fore-thought and 'double-time' to the closest action.



    Quote Originally Posted by False_Emperor View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jONESIE
    EDIT: you have cited the Berzerker Glaive in your original question, Berzerker Glaive model MUST D6 Frenzy, he automatically gets it due to the daemon weapon. so, he cant take enhanced movement, because he must frenzy D6- cant have both, and must frenzy D6 = no extra movement speeds.

    (About Berzerker Glaive...) I'm going to be frank, I just don't think this is true.

    fair enough. but as far as i know, automatically gripping frenzy means you must roll D6 and move. because you cant have mulitple movement modes, a model with Ber Glaive cant have another movement mode because he already gets automatic Blood Frenzy movement. i saw this in an official FAQ too, yet have been unable to find it for you to post the specifics.


    Quote Originally Posted by False_Emperor View Post
    Point The First: The Actual Wording
    For starters, the Berzerker Glaive rules do not actually say the unit "must" frenzy, it in fact says that it is "automatically gripped" by frenzy. The difference is that the unit may be gripped by Blod Frenzy, but if given movement modifiers he is unable to act upon this bloodlust.
    well, he has no choice BUT to act apon his bloodlust. it isnt him, remember, its a Khornate daemonic weapon calling for the slaughter of innocents.
    he auto get frenzy, so must use it. cant have multiple movement modes, so cant even be silly enough to give him one since it is unnallowed in the WH rules.
    i stand by the fact that Ber Glaive cannot have enhanced movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by False_Emperor View Post
    In the end, if riding a bike allowing a lord to chose where he moves is accepted by the general WarHammer community I will probably accept this strange advantage, but in any case I would liek to know why the WarHammer community accepts it as such.

    ill let the community answer that
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    Aesthete honorableSimon's Avatar
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    Me = Silly

    Well now :feels stupid: something you just said cleared this entire issue up for me really fast. If I saw the part of the Blood Frenzy rule that said you don't roll for people with different movement, I definitely forgot about it and assumed the Errata entry was the only material on the subject. Thanks a lot for pointing that out to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by jONESIE View Post
    ok, i also had lag and forum/busy problems, plus checking the post to see a huge wall of txt aimed in my direction didnt help, niether did the lack of smileys or emotions so also forgive my arrogance.
    Blarg why is the server going so slow?

    In any case sorry for the big block of text, I hate to use this cop-out again but I'm a debater and it's just how I function, for better or for worse. No hard feelings (see, I know how to use emoticons! lol)


    Quote Originally Posted by jONESIE View Post
    well, if it meant the latter, then i would need to pass a test to be fearless, yes? with every unit marked Khorne? now this is a)unreasonable, and b)lacks common sense. you are, in a sense, 'bending' what you are reading.
    Yeah, reading over what I wrote I meant to write it differently, and the way I meant to write it just showed how wrong I was... oops :wacko:


    Quote Originally Posted by jONESIE View Post
    the entry reads, "start of the movement phase roll a D6 for each unit suffering from blood frenzy ( dont roll for vehicles or extra movement modes)". it doesnt reference movement, it references the test. you dont roll if you have enhanced movement. simple.
    And here is where I went terribly, terribly wrong. My bad.


    Quote Originally Posted by jONESIE View Post
    true, getting angry doesnt make your bike go quicker. getting angry doesnt make my uni assignment complete themselves.
    if i had for daemonic goat legs, i could probably get mad and move a little quicker.
    if i was on foot, i would be pretty angry too, and would get sick of watching everything and not participating. so i would charge the closest thing to slay my bloodlust. although, if i had a bike, or enhanced movement, i could get there with relative ease, and set myself up to slaughter everything i wanted.
    this reasoning leads to the fact that anything with enhanced movement doesnt need to get so pissed about footslogging because they WILL get there, hence doesnt test to see if they really want to give up shooting and 'double-time' to the closest action.
    I actually really like this explanation. Originally I was going to whine a little bit and stand by my explanation of the fluff behind it, but this makes too much sense to ignore.


    Quote Originally Posted by jONESIE View Post
    fair enough. but as far as i know, automatically gripping frenzy means you must roll D6 and move. because you cant have mulitple movement modes, a model with Ber Glaive cant have another movement mode because he already gets automatic Blood Frenzy movement. i saw this in an official FAQ too, yet have been unable to find it for you to post the specifics.

    well, he has no choice BUT to act apon his bloodlust. it isnt him, remember, its a Khornate daemonic weapon calling for the slaughter of innocents.
    he auto get frenzy, so must use it. cant have multiple movement modes, so cant even be silly enough to give him one since it is unnallowed in the WH rules.
    i stand by the fact that Ber Glaive cannot have enhanced movement.
    If you look at the original FAQ entry I posted GW says that the flight takes precedence despite the berzerker glaive (they don't come out and say this, which is where it may get confusing, but the question included the berzerker glaive and I'm certain GW would have answered that as well if it created a seperate case), so theoretically other superior movement modes would also take precedence. If you find some other material on this question I would love to see it.


    For now, sorry to bump this to the top of the list again and sorry to anyone that reads through all that text before coming to my sad conclusion :blush:
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    0!=1jumpin'punch'swing jONESIE's Avatar
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    No Worries! reading again, damn im sorry for my attitude lol

    neways, alls good! thank you for the argument, actually it was funny wasnt it?

    and your justifications for some things were really good.

    and yes, whats with the forums problem? i get locked out regularly......

    oh well
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaffar_Hasad
    You need more Mordians?
    They still exist?
    LO RULES

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