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I know there is a post about how to use specific units with the thousand sons but i'm asking how do you win games with them. I see your stats in your signuatres which say 63% win and i'm wondering if were playing the same legion. i have a 5-10% win ratio with the suns. Before somone suggests it, i already posted my army list in a seperate post. Let me start by listing my problems when playing this army.
Anti-tank- i only own one predator. This predator has a tendancy to explode. I'm not saying all TS armeis have anti-vehicle problems just mine. I know the obvious answer is to buy two more predators but i'm considering selling this army.
Ordnance-specifically the battle cannon. Fear is having all 2 wound models (save champions) and having 3 leman russes on the other side of the table. Each shell takes out an average of 4 dust suits a turn. I only have two squads. by turn 3 i'm usually reduced to 2 ACs running around like the crazed fools they are.
Lack of Firepower: The dust suit squads can only take bolters. A bolter is just as good as a lasgun, does nothing at all. I spent 3 turns firing at nurglings. I killed 1. not 1 base 1 nurgling. Sure the champion can have bolt of change but that will only hit 4 times out of 6 in a standard game.
Basically thats what it amounts to. I used to have three defilers. THen i played one game and cried from having spend 120 dollars on garbage. Were supposed to be a ranged army yet we lack the fire power of slanesh. i played against them once and it was embarassing how quickly they were dropping my squads. We are not the melee our bloodthirsty khorne brothers are. We are not resilent like our nurgle brethen. What are we?
I appolgize if this seems like a rant. It partially is because i spent that last year playing this army and only winning 5 of 40 games.
"Drop emergency bulkheads! Activate compression rams! Set internal bracing! Issue brace for impact alert! I repeat, brace for impact!"
Well, I personally don't play Thousand Sons very often but I can give you a few starter tips. First, having 1 piece of armor on the board is usually a bad idea. Take at least 2 predators so that all of your opponents fire is not concentrated on one vehicle. As for the defilers you mentioned, they can be really hit and miss... its what makes ordinance so much fun. The next tip I would suggest is mounting your troops in Rhino's. Footslogging them across the board is generally not a good idea. Other than that, I would suggest reading the article written by one of the TS pros here on Librarium Online. I can't find the link at the moment, but I will edit this post when I locate it.
If this still doesn't work for you, cheer up because by September/October the Chaos Codex update is expected and so far the rumors all have me believing that TS will be one powerful army. Stick in there, at least until the new C:CSM is released.
I don't know how many other armies you play, but you need to realise that Thousand Sons is easily one of the most difficult armies to built, plan and execute properly.I know there is a post about how to use specific units with the thousand sons but i'm asking how do you win games with them. I see your stats in your signuatres which say 63% win and i'm wondering if were playing the same legion. i have a 5-10% win ratio with the suns. Before somone suggests it, i already posted my army list in a seperate post.
Winning averages aren't really important in my opinion. I love slurgle despite having a 'low' winning average with them.
Have fun. And yes, winning and fun don't have to be the same thing.Both echu bless and yourself have hit the nail on the head. Single armour is never a good thing. You know what you have to do to alleviate this problem. I appreciate your current procrastination considering that you want to rid yourself of the army.Anti-tank- i only own one predator. This predator has a tendancy to explode. I'm not saying all TS armeis have anti-vehicle problems just mine. I know the obvious answer is to buy two more predators but i'm considering selling this army.
Might i suggest Ebay for a cheap one? Cheap ones are great to convert up - even loyalist ones.Make no mistakes, ordnance and battle cannons ruin EVERYONE's days. You're not alone in this. A great way of usual dealing with indirect ordnance is deepstriking with big guns. As for direct fire, I'd suggest a rhino shield. Sure it can scatter, but they still need to draw a bead to you. If you can get those rhinos even half way up the field you have a safe place to hide.Ordnance-specifically the battle cannon. Fear is having all 2 wound models (save champions) and having 3 leman russes on the other side of the table. Each shell takes out an average of 4 dust suits a turn. I only have two squads. by turn 3 i'm usually reduced to 2 ACs running around like the crazed fools they are.
I'm no 1K sons expert though. That's just a crack pot theory in my face.I'm sorry that you have such terrible luck with the dice. I've killed carnifexes with the humble bolter. >_<Lack of Firepower: The dust suit squads can only take bolters. A bolter is just as good as a lasgun, does nothing at all. I spent 3 turns firing at nurglings. I killed 1. not 1 base 1 nurgling. Sure the champion can have bolt of change but that will only hit 4 times out of 6 in a standard game.
I would have though that thousand sons would have been especially effective, because of the slow and purposeful rule.
If you want to even out the odds though, definitely try flamers of tzeentch. It's concentrated fire power where you need it. Doom bolt without the psytest is just insane.
++ BIG EDIT ++
Woah.. woah.. wait a second.. 4 hits out of 6?
Where are your thralls dude? If your Champs are walking they want 4 thralls with them. You need to be firing 10 shots in a match!
Thralls are vital to thousand sons.Defilers are cruel to use. They don't follow standard game dynamics.Basically thats what it amounts to. I used to have three defilers. THen i played one game and cried from having spend 120 dollars on garbage.
You need to use them regularly to get the effect over several matches. Also, try two defilers and the predator.
That gives the enemies enough worries to make sure your predator can punch some armour out.In a word : Tricky.Were supposed to be a ranged army yet we lack the fire power of slanesh. i played against them once and it was embarassing how quickly they were dropping my squads. We are not the melee our bloodthirsty khorne brothers are. We are not resilent like our nurgle brethen. What are we?
Thousand sons doesn't follow any particular dynamic, it's a totally different thought process for the Legion of Tzeentch.
When I do Army list design, I literally have to leave it a couple of days before I touch a Thousand Sons list. They're different to Chaos and not really comparable in my opinion.
They seem similar to necrons in many ways.Don't worry about it. The whole point of LO and the like is that we can help each other out.I appolgize if this seems like a rant. It partially is because i spent that last year playing this army and only winning 5 of 40 games.
Also, please please don't get rid of your army.
I think you should start another army - something totally different like nids or tau. That will give you a bit of happiness and also maybe help you to appreciate just how different current 1K sons are.
Additionally.. your patience WILL be rewarded when with the new codex everyone will be going to buy Thousand Sons.
'All is dust' will become a very popular sig/user bar.
Good luck and keep your chin up.
Maybe if you try and get on Vassal someone can coach you through some finer 1K sons techniques.
Last edited by Karmoon; April 30th, 2007 at 11:30.
There is 3 ways to play 1kSons.
the first one that everyone play is the Rhino Rush army, pack your troops of 9 in a Rhino, add a Thrall and give Wind of Chaos to your AC. To this you can add some deepstriking terminators and 2 predator or 2 dreadnough. A cheap flying Melee Lord could be usefull too.
The second one is the walking army, you first try to start in terrains to have a good Inv Save, it's not a problem for us because of the Slow and Purposeful rule. Instead of Wind of Chaos you can use Doombolt or Bolt of Change(it's your choice, personally i prefer doombolt) and always equip 4 thrall. when walking, using Flamers of Tzeentch is a really good idea. You can add some terminators again. for the lords, some cheap melee lieutnant can make the day.
The third way is not an official way and may sometimes be called ''cheesy''. There's a special charcater in the US WD 306 that have a special ability for us. He can teleport himself with a squad(by teleport i mean deep strike so you can scatter). The way i always use this dude. I use 2 of them. I put them in 2 squad of 9(or 18, it's as good) and i try to deep strike behind enemy line, most of the time it work pretty well if you doesnt scatter too far or out of the board. Equip your ACs with Wind of Chaos again and when you deep strike near an enemy just place your AC so he can kill lot of unit and shoot with all your guys.
thanks for the help. I do play another 40k army, ulthwe eldar. Infact if i hadn't bought that army i would have quit warhammer 40k. When i lost my 20th game in a row with this army, i got disheartened.
I do have a few questions though.
Isn't the new chaos book comming out in december and its undivided only?
Why use rhinos? sure you can get another 12" closer to the enemy but if you take into account of getting entangled, its really only 6".
"Drop emergency bulkheads! Activate compression rams! Set internal bracing! Issue brace for impact alert! I repeat, brace for impact!"
The chaos codex is expected in December. And if there is a split it will be Chaos Marines and then Renegades.
Please check the ZOMG chaos thread for a low-down on what's being changed and what it means.
Trust me when I say 'All is dust' is going to make 1K sons competitive, if not horribly elf slaughteringly broken.
A 12" move is probably better than thousand sons can muster in two turns (should you get entangled). Plus then you pop smoke which increases survivability.
The thing with rhinos is.. you don't have to be inside them to enjoy that AV protection. Consider, dashing forward 12, then following it on foot. Voila, mobile cover.
The more vehicles you have, the more hard done the enemy will be. Suddenly, 3 lascannons aren't going to put much of a dent on your army any more.
NOTE, this doesn't work against Necrons.
We may play the same army, without playing the same way
Yet, I've faced this kind of army whith my Thousand Sons and still manage to end it in a draw by deep striking Rubric Terminators (AC : Chain Fist, Bolt of change) right beside 1 of the Russ, destroying it and using it as cover. My predator killed 1 and the termi took care of the last one 2 turns later. IC are especialy good with bolt of change because of their high BS. As for your troops, I would suggest you move them in Rhinos to partly avoid template losses and also to move faster obviously. Walking isn't good enough.
Here is a common 1500 points army list I use, it's quite a winner.
Thousand Sons Lord
Bolt Pistol, Spiky Bits
Warp Blade, D. Aura, D. Mutation, Bolt of Change
9 Thousand Sons
AC : Power Fist, Spiky Bits, D. Mutations, Wind of chaos
9 Thousand Sons
AC : Power Weapon, Talissement of Tzeentch, Tzeentch Minor psy
9 Thousand Sons
AC : Power Fist, Spiky Bits, D. Mutation, Twisting Path
5 Rubrique Terminators
AC : ChainFist, D. Mutation, Spiky Bits, Bolt of change
Twin Linked Lascannon turret
CHAOS Undiv.: won 14/22 games EC: 4/7 WE: 6/9 DG: 10/15, TS: 3/7 Orks : 13/20 SM NL : 1/6 TAU: 14 of 24 IG: 3/7
The Sons are a tough nut to crack, you have to be patient and also be adaptable, take what you learn in each game and try and apply it to the next one. Search some of the old Chaos Army List threads and look for some Son lists that got good report from the other LO users. Also maybe look for some Thousand Sons battle reports, you might get some valuble ideas. Find some local tournaments or go to a Games Day near you and see what you can learn about the Sons. PM some users here, as it gets attention faster. Andussciassus and Paladin777 and MindRaked are all experienced Sons users. I'd request help in the Tzneentch units thread, most of the Sons players check that one it seems.
The Sons are hard to play, as for me, I try to examine every turn, what would benefit myself the best. Go through each unit, if I shoot - will that be more effective in the long run than me assaulting? If I don't shoot at those Genestealers heading my way, but manage to kill the Zoanthrope wondering nearby with Bolt of Change, will I be better off? We have the disadvatage of Champions having to fire what the Rubrics shoot at. It might be tempting to take down something big and scary looking, but those Genestealers can tear through my Sons like no tomorrow if I let them. Your Champions are essential, if you don't tool them out, you'll lose. Rubrics are ok on their own, btu Champions make these guys a viable fighting force. Thrall wizards should alwas be taken, always. Each champion (for the exception of some combat ones in Rhinos, who may have less, but should have some or more!) should have at least 3. Theses guys double your fire output for four turns. Plus it's always funny when the little guys kill something in CC. I usually combine one ranged power with one close range power - Like Bolt of Change and Wind of Chaos, or Doombolt and Gift of Chaos. For combat sqauds, I'd combine both of the close range powers. They should also be mounted in Rhinos, with Extra Armor and Smoke Launchers where possible. In combat, your Sons are ablative wounds for the Champion. Champions should usually be armed with a Powerfist and if possible Daemonic Mutation and/or Mastercraft. If I only have the points for one I get mutation, it's like MC but if I roll well I get another hitting attack, hopefully you understand that. It is ok sometimes to arm them with Power weapons and Daemonic Strength, but the Powerfists are usually more effective and can handle the more dangerous enemies like Wraithlords or Dreadnoughts. Some guys like to put Terminator Armor on their Champs, for me, usually what kills them is going to wipe them out anyway (ie Large Ordinance, Power Weapons, or he's alone and gets shot by a whole unit).
The daemons are a little bit more difficult. They take some finesse I guess you could say. Horrors, don't touch them. You might as well take less points than your opponent. Flamers however, are quite viable, and can shoot out even more dakka when in close range than a Rubric sqaud. I usually take one unit of 9 in large games (1500+). Don't let them get assaulted unless you need the delay, they take a while to kill since they have double the wounds and always get their saves. Screamers, interesting. I've had ok-ish luck with them. But Andussciassuss swears by them. He uses them to 'snipe' IC's (most with Psychic Hoods) and to get rear armor hits on dangerous vehicles like Leman Russ's or Basilisks.
For heavy support, I usually rely on a taste of all three of our options. But for the most part, you should bring at least one predator, prolly two. They are ore survivable and reliable than dreanoughts. Though dreadnoughts are rather useful in cityfights as mentioned above I think. I also bring one Defiler, though I wouldn't risk more than one. We need the anti-armor more than the anti-personnel. Though if you're careful, they can do both. Defilers only need the Indrect Upgrade and their set to go. Preds I usually give Daemonic Possession, sometimes Mutated Hull if I can't spend the points in other places. I take the....Destructor? Pattern I think? Anyway, it's the one with two Lascannn sponsoons and an Autocannon turret.
HQ's are still a bit of an unknown for me. I usually either take the simple LT with BoC and 4 thralls (also sometimes include one or two CC enhancements) or the big, nasty Daemon Prince, although I prefer not as Undivided ones can be more effective than ours to an extent.
Anyway, I hope this helps. Don't give up, you can do it. Don't be afraid to ask the veterans I mentioned above for some help, they should be able to point you in the right direction much better than I can. But good luck bud, and don't worry, you'll get it.
"If you can wait til I get home, then I swear we can make this last."
There's a lot of good advice on this thread. You see, this is why L.O. is such a wonderful tool. Players come together (enough with the cheese).
Here is some information regarding rhino tactics that I posted in an early Space Marine thread. As others have indicated, rhinos are exceptionally good for T.S., even if your troops aren't in them.
Rhino's aren't meant to be used by themselves, and for that matter, neither are predators. Rhinos function best when used in numbers, and even then, one shouldn't expect all of them to make it to their objectives. It's important to bear in mind the priority hierarch of your army. For example, fielding 2-4 rhinos alongside 2-3 predators (and sometimes a statured prince) 'down-shifts' the priority status on your rhinos. In other words, the average opponent regards predators and statured princes as higher priority targets than rhinos, even if a rhino is closer and filled with bloodthirsty berzerkers. More often than not the average player reacts to what he/she can see and not where the actual threats exist.
A rhino is, to quote our beloved codex, "the most ubiquitous vehicle in the Chaos Space Marine arsenal." This isn't just a fluff statement people. It really is an amazing piece of machinery when used correctly. Unlike predator tactics, a good rhino strategy will often involve changing it's objective every round. This usually involves a general objective of reaching the enemy lines, and then specific round-by-round objectives that can be altered, depending on the progress of one's opponent. These specific objectives include: blocking the L.O.S. of your footsloggers, statured princes & other vehicles; tank shocking an advancing enemy c.c. units in order to disrupt their tempo; and finally, blocking L.O.S. between enemy heavy squads and your models. The last of these works particularly well once the rhino has unloaded its occupants. Most players will ignore an empty rhino, preferring instead to take aim at predators. Take advantage of your opponent's dismissal of the rhino, and remember that an empty rhino isn't just a glorified combi-bolter sitting atop a box of armor; it has use beyond a transport!
Rhinos are notoriously effective for befuddling advancing enemy c.c. units. Even used independently from it's marine attachment, you can make good use of a rhino by positioning the rhino directly between an enemy c.c. squad and your T.S. marines. This forces your opponent to maneuver his/her c.c. squad around the rhino, thus providing an additional round before you have to deal with the enemy c.c. units. Against less experienced players, I've actually held off c.c. units for the entire game, simply by cutting off the line of attack with my rhinos.
Additional comment: I touched briefly on the benefit of rhinos blocking L.O.S. to heavy squads, but let me very briefly run through this with a little more attention to detail:
Try this out: Take an empty rhino and drive it directly in front of an enemy devastator squad, then park it. This forces your opponent to do one of three things:
1) They can destroy with their devastators, but this option still leaves your opponent with a destroyed vehicle blocking L.O.S. for the devastators, so then the devastators are required to move during their next round in order to regain L.O.S.. In other words, the rhino has just taken the devastator squad out of commission for a solid 2 rounds. Most players elect to destroy the rhino with their devastators, seeing as how they can’t fire at any thing else with them. Most players don’t take into consideration that after the rhino is destroyed, that they have this enormous L.O.S. blocker that prohibits their devastators from firing.
2) The second option is to move the devastators out from behind the rhino. Now, the devastators can fire the next round (of course, they’ve lost this round of firing, because they moved). This option actually works out fantastically well for the chaos player, because he/she simply moves the rhino back in front of the devastators. In essence, your opponent must deal with the rhino in order to regain their L.O.S.
3) Finally, your opponent could use something else to destroy the rhino, which is actually their best solution, but this still requires the devastators to move in order to regain L.O.S., and it also redirects potentially dangerous fire-power from your predators onto your rhino- a good thing to be sure.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
I thought if you got a vehicle anilihated result(1/6 chance on penatration roll) that you simply removed the vehicle and it does not block LOS?3) Finally, your opponent could use something else to destroy the rhino, which is actually their best solution, but this still requires the devastators to move in order to regain L.O.S., and it also redirects potentially dangerous fire-power from your predators onto your rhino- a good thing to be sure
I agree with the others that you need anti tank doubly so with a tson army, since its our only way to get heavy weapons in our lists. I would suggest that you never take dreadnaughts unless your doing a multi thousand point game. We need our HS slots to take out heavy tanks and having a dread that has a 2/6 chance of possibly not doing what we want it too is just too costly.
I agree with the 2 preds minimum philosophy, i have yet to meet a TS player that doesnt field at least 2, but including me there is only 2 tsons player total in my area so take that as you will.