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Hi, I am new to the boards, but not new to 40k.
I have recently finished assembling what I hoped to be a 2000 pt Word Bearers army, but after seeing some of what is on the horizon for Chaos, I am a bit apprehensive to begin painting my force.
Are the undivided legions and their fluff nonexistant (as far as special abilities go) in the new codex? Will the vanilla Black Legion be all that is left? (All the posts I am seeing point to yes :cry
Will it even be possible to field an entirely undivided army (no cult units) and still be competitive?
Thanks for your time and any light you can shine on this for me.
To be honest, all you need is in the rumours thread and the OMGZ thread.
The author of the Chaos codex is different. Peter Haines put heavy emphasis on the Legions of Chaos which was pretty cool in my opinion.
The new author is putting more emphasis on Renegades like the Red Corsairs.
Basically, it will be possible to play a 'counts as' army, but there aren't any special rules as such. This may change in the future though I guess. Through WhiteDwarf or whatever.
While there's all you need to know in the other threads I'll do a summary here. This is how it looks like you'll have to simulate the Chaos Legions with the new codex:
> Infiltrate still possible with veterans.
> Attack from all directions definitely possible - with cheaper Raptors, Deep striking obliterators, Always deep striking terminators.
> Possible to simulate cultists like things with generic Chaos daemons.
> Raptors even cheaper and more versatile with mark options. So less slots but probably more of them.
Night lords probably suffer more than any other traitor legion.
> Daemons don't take up any spaces on the FOC, so troops choices still potentially more than 6.
> Still possible to max out on obliterators - 9
> Possible to effectively take 6 pieces of armour, although this will inevitable mean taking dreadnoughts (now elites)
Basically, there's only one blunt way of putting it:
The Chaos codex is changing. It's different.
Your army will probably be lacking if you want to recreate something from a past codex. It's probably best to have elements of your old ideas but take full advantage of the amazing deals we get with the new codex.
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric
Thank you so much for the breakdown of how the legions are affected, Karmoon.
Not sure why they would want to swing the emphasis towards the renegades when their legion centric fiction has been fairly popular with fans.
Well I guess I will just have to buckle down and await the coming codex. :hmm:
Fluff wise, this doesn't make sense. Most of the original Legions have splintered apart during the centuries of infighting and power struggling. Typical Chaos armies are now bands of marines that join up for a common goal, such as serving an influential Daemon Prince or attacking an Imperial supply depot.
Gone are the days of pure 1K Sons armies coming out of the Warp to do battle with a random Tyranid splinter fleet. You can still do it, if you really wanted to, but it won't be as unique or powerful as it is now.
So, the cult legions are suffering a loss. However, it is my firm belief that the Chaos Codex as a whole is becoming much stronger. Individual units are more powerful, rather than relying upon gimmick Legion rules. Individuality is being promoted, rather than pigeon-holing all armies into one of eight Legions.
Karmoon did an excellent job of showing how one can still recreate their Undivided Legions, if they really wanted to.
Over all, I think we're in for a severe culture shock, and people are going to have to adapt to it. But change is a good thing. In the end, I'm positive that people will still proclaim - 'Sheesh, that was one hardcore Chaos army.'
I'm not very familiar with the fine details of the fluff history of chaos. Is Abaddon still alive? Is he still amassing a following? If so, then through Abaddon one could see a united chaos front.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
To be honest I'm not too happy with the focus on renegades in the new fluff, but it's not that much of a problem. I can always ignore it.
Anyway, it seems the Wordbearers will be largely untouched. They'll lose Dark Apostles, but there's no reason you can't take a lord with a daemon weapon and model it as an accursed Crozius.
Let me play Devil's Advocate, and try to refute some of these points, if I may.
Fluffwise, they're only technically a Legion since the death of Horus.
Ruleswise, a WE army with Obliterators may be listed as a "Black Legion" list.Fluff justifies the rules, afaik, not vice versa.Fluff wise, this doesn't make senseYou just made that up. You can't cite that as a reason to nerf all our MoCU armies.Typical Chaos armies are now bands of marines that join up for a common goal
"Typical Tourney CSM armies are cookie-cutter IW lists", is a more likely reason.Au contraire, mon frere. Rumour has it that TS are to be anointed the new IW . . .Gone are the days of pure 1K Sons armies coming out of the Warp to do battleJust so we're all clear on the fluff concept of 'Cult' -So, the cult legions are suffering a loss
DG, EC, TS and WE are Cults; worshipful minions of the four Ruinous Powers.
They slavishly do as they're told by middle management-types like Princes.
They stopped worshipping The Emperor and started worshipping The Gods.
This is what made loyal adherents of the Imperial Cult call them Traitors.Pure speculation that sidesteps the fact that 'gimmicks' aren't to be hosed, armies are.Individual units are more powerful, rather than relying upon gimmickBull. And it's 9 Legions. Pigeon-holing? How many Loyalist SM Codecies are there?Individuality is being promoted, rather than pigeon-holing all armies
An infinite number of DIY warbands are neatly encompassed by the current BL rules.Recreate? If they *wanted* to? My armies are already bought and painted!Karmoon did an excellent job of showing how one can still recreate their Undivided Legions, if they really wanted to
But fine, let's have another look at Karmoon's post:Daemons cannot simulate Cultists; Cultists needn't be summoned.Alpha Legion: Infiltrate still possible with veterans...
cheaper Raptors, Deep striking obliterators, Always deep striking terminators.
Possible to simulate cultists like things with generic Chaos daemons.
All the Units mentioned are to be available to every Chaos army list. IOW, vanilla.Those Units are to be available to every Chaos army list. Vanilla.Night Lords: Raptors even cheaper and more versatile with mark options. So less slots but probably more of themThose Units are to be available to every Chaos army list. Pure vanilla.Word Bearers: Daemons don't take up any spaces on the FOC, so troops choices still potentially more than 6Those Units are to be available to every Chaos army list. Purest vanilla.Iron Warriors: Still possible to max out on obliterators - 9
Possible to effectively take 6 pieces of armour, although this will inevitable mean taking dreadnoughts (now elites)
If I liked vanilla, I'd be playing Ultramarines. I don't play Ultramarines.
Legions are the *reason* I bought Chaos armies. The rumour threads have me asking -
AL without Cultists? WB without Chaplains? IW without Basilisks? Incredible.
Here's the thing -
MoCU players aren't upset about some intangible rules abstraction.
We *bought* our Cultists, Basilisks and Chaplains with *real* money!
Don't tell us that -That's bull. Change is inevitable whether we like it or not. Good Things are good things.change is a good thing
Forcing replacement of Units arbitrarily made obsolete just to stay competitive is *not*.
Based on these rumours I, for one, am prepared to absolutely *hate* the new Codex.
Those who choose to do likewise at least won't be too disappointed . . .
AL army with over 100 Cultist and Daemon figs
DG army with 3 Units of Possessed
IW army with Basi, Vin and 3 Obliterators
WB army with Chaplain and 9 CSM Troops Units
- Color me NOT happy with the Codex rumours
Last edited by Playa; June 24th, 2007 at 03:39.
Playa, I appreciate your differing view point, but I'd like to ask that you bring your tone down a notch. I get the feeling that you're trying to talk down to Karmoon and me, and I don't care for it.
I did have a big, long winded reply, but thought better of it. I think it can all be summed in in a simple sentence -
"Chaos is changing whether you like it or not, so the only things you can do are stop playing the army or adapt like everyone else."
Now, this really isn't the right place for rants about the upcoming Codex. That's why we have the OMGZ! thread. Since this thread really serves no more purpose, I'm locking it before it degenerates into more complaining.
Greensentinel - Please feel free to PM/MSN myself or Karmoon if you'd like to talk further. I never get tired of discussing things of a Chaos nature.