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After erroneously posting this in the army list forum...I've moved this to here, where it belongs...
Perhaps unsurprisingly (since most 40k players start on marines), most opponents I run into are other Space Marines players. Generally, my Marines do encounter some difficulties, but I've only been able to manage a tie at best against my fellow marine players.
I can't give a specific army build, sadly, since I'm usually switching it around but the common elements (at around 1500pts) tend to be....
Traits: Trust Your Battle Brothers (occasionally), Cleanse and Purify (Always)
Drawbacks: Eye to Eye (occasionally), Death before Dishonor (always)
Typically a lone command captain/master with a power weapon, halo, and combi-plas.
6 man sniper / Missile Launcher scout squad.
10 man tactical, 2 plasma guns, Vsgt with powerfist
Vindicator with Powers of the Machine Spirit.
Whirlwind, typically castellan load out.
This 'core' is usually augmented with either a 10 man assault team (powerfist and 2X plasma pistol equipped) and/or a 6 man devestator squad (heavy bolter, two missile launchers, plasma cannon), and/or the occasional land speeder tornado.
Model wise I've got nothing but options for stuff, but I'm mostly looking for explanations and tactics to help. Generally most marines I run into fall into the three following categories.
Grey Knights: I do the best against these oddly enough. Of four games against the 666th chapter, I've managed to tie all four (the vindicator seems to balance out the grey knight terminators, and trust your battle brothers seems to help in the assaults.)
Ultramarines (basic non-traited, 10 man squads with flamer and missile launcher): Of five games, I've won one (close), lost one(close), and tied three times.
Traits (Heed the wisdom of the ancients): 2 games, erradicated both times under the unstoppable powerfists of four+ dreadnoughts.
Suggestions are welcome, obviously.
Playing to beat power armor is something that all lists do, and all lists should do. This because the most popular army in 40k is space marines, the second is chaos, and finally eldar. All of which have plenty of power armor.
If you want help with tactics, read the HQ and Drop pod tacticas, even if you don't intent to use drop pods, as it will at least get you thinking about how to create a tactic that will work for you. Although I do highly recommend drop podding lists, they are probably not well suited for beginners.
No offense, but most of your army looks like a mess.
Here are a few units to try: Chaplains, assault squads, devastator squads, LSTs
Try searching in the army list section for the following users - under thread started by:
Ezekiel1990, Chaos_Brynn, Forgedinthefurnaceofwar
I know all those lists are quality, study them a bit, you might start to see how the units support each other, and common unit selections.
One of the simplest ways to beat power armour is to utilize volume of fire. Because dice are subject to the law of averages, they are bound to roll some ones and twos. Thus, cause enough wounds and marines will fall. That's how, generally, Imperial Guard can win over marines.
So, this is where the rapid fire capability of the bolter really begins to shine. With a great ballistic skill and a decent chance to cause wounds, bolters are perhaps one of the best weapons in the space marine arsenal. They're basic, and in plenty of supply.
Thus, I suggest that you invest in maybe one or two 8-10 man squads that are completely blank, or have one or two plasma guns in there as well. Load them in drop pods or rhinos, and their sole purpose would be to annoy squads. Get in twelve inches and let loose.
Does that help?
It helps a bit, yes.
I still don't see how that roughly 800 point "core" of my army is a 'mess' though. I swear by the Vindicator, if solely for the psychological effect it has.
I have found that cleanse and purify, particularly with the pair of plasma guns, lets me outshoot my fellow marines in a rapid fire situation (the ultramarine folks with the flamers/missile launchers) specifically worry about this and seem to try to engage me at 24 inches).
I'm not a fan of the 'bare' tactical squad though. Far too often a tactical squad moves forward and find itself locked in combat against something it can't damage (my first encounter with the 4-6 dreadnought army made this abundantly clear to me). Admittedly, I do seem to have an issue against other marine players with fewer 'toys' in their squads then I have. Unfortunately, without these toys, the army doesn't seem to handle as well against non-marine opponets.
I've made heavy usage of 10 man assault teams (PF Sgt, two plasma pistols) in the past, but they tend to draw spectacular levels of fire.
Vehicles work better in pairs. So either take two whirlwinds or two vindicators. When you say you take a LST, are you just taking one or a squadron?
My core army consists of 3x 10 man tact squads. The SM troop is a very powerful unit. I give my vet sgt a powerfist and occasionally a plasma pistol. I also take the melta gun over the plasma gun because rapid firing a plasma gun is to risky for me. On top of that, melta guns do wonders to those pesky dreadnoughts.
The dev squad is a mess. You've got anti-infantry weapons combined with anti-tank. I recommend 4 missile launch dev squads. Some say they need to be 8 or 10 man in each squad. I go with 6 and just let them die, haven't had many games where I wished I had more men in the squads.
The 10 man chaplain led assault squad is very nasty, unfortunatley everyone has faced it and a lot of experienced opponents know how to scoot to just the right spot to avoid being charged and leaving your squad out in the open. But it's still a good choice.
Hope some of those comments help!
"The internet perceives censorship as damage, and routes around it."
I've never really liked Whirlwinds. They don't have enough strength for ordinance, so even if they do hit things don't die, perhaps two vindicators :shifty:.
Your Captain would benefit from having a bolt pistol.
Cleans and purify might be causing some unforseen problems. If you have two plasma guns, then you don't have a lascannon/rocketlauncher, which means you lose some vital anti-tank, which would help against those 4 dreads, maybe get a melta gun in some? A nice little anti-tank unit would be a Dread with Lascannon+Missile launcher option, people say they suck, but I really like them. Seeing as how you cannot split your devs up, I feel the weapons are too all over the place (I suspect WYSIWYG is to blame), maybe get more Anti-tanks weapons.
Next thing I see that I don't like is a missile launcher in the Sniper squad. Snipers can't tank hunt and Frags don't really do much alongside snipers. A Heavy bolter would help to cause more wounds.
Your Assault Squad could cut-back on Plasma Pistols; I don't much care for them; though that’s getting a little opinionated. Perhaps like was mention you get a chaplain to lead the Assault squad.
If you call it a Missile launcher, then it'll never hit anything.
100% of people who aren't Karmoon know Saraneth is invincible.
As for the dreadnoughts, you definately need more then one of those dudes. Thats an idea actually...since I don't really use my elite slots.
Still, the feedback is appreciated.
Ok. First, if you're going to ask for help, then listen to what the people you are asking help from are telling you. I see a lot of advice being given, and a lot of you saying you disagree. Then why are you asking for help?
There is a wealth of knowledge and experience here…but you have to listen to it to get any benefit from it.
I'm going to start with your traits.
Trust Your Battle Brother. I HATE this trait. IMHO, this is the biggest, bloated, inefficient use of points possible. Especially against marines. A single non-power weapon attack is just not worth that much. On average, you need 12 regular attacks to kill 1 marine. So a squad of 10 guys with TyBB are not even odds to kill 1 extra marine. And even if you do kill that extra marine, he is going to get his attacks back. Plus, TyBB does not turn the bolter into an Assault weapon, so you're still stuck if you fire it. TyBB would be useful against armies with poor armor, and poor Init, like Orcs, except if you happen to kill 2 or 3 extra orcs, they don't care, you're still gonna lose the Assault. THEN…when you factor in that you have 2 guys in your squad that have to buy the trait, and can't use it (because they are not using bolters) it's even more inefficient.
Cleanse and Purify. This is a great trait, but it needs to be used properly. I would say that unless you're playing a Drop Pod army, or a purely mechanized (all in Rhino's) list, this trait is difficult to use well. And tac squads with 2 plasmaguns should NEVER take the place of the tried and true 5 or 6 man las squad…which you seriously need.
Now your squads...
I know your limited on models, but the company master is probably the worst choice of HQ's you could have for the list you play. His only ability is to give your guys better leadership, but when you're running Vet Sarges in most of your squads, he is simply redundant. GET A CHAPLAIN. I only use masters if I'm using a static shooting list, or I absolutely want the cheapest HQ I can get.
Sniper with Missile Launcher. I disagree that you should drop the ML in favor of an HB, however I feel you should drop this squad entirely. Especially if you're mainly playing marines. Almost any experience marine player will tell you that sniper squads are only really useful against Monstrous Creatures. They look good on paper, but they just always fail to deliver on the table. Lets crunch the numbers. You have 6 snipers. On average that is going to be 5 hits. Against marines that will be 2.5 wounds. That is going to be MAYBE 1 kill, and with a good leadership, they are most likely to not be pinned. AND…you have a missile launcher in there…so every turn you are firing the ML at a tank, you are wasting all your sniper shots.
Tac Squads. These are the perfect C&P squads except for 1 thing. They are left to footslog across the battlefield. You have this great ability to move and still shoot, but when it takes you 2 or 3 turns to get into range to do so, you have a real problem.
Vindicator with PotMS. This is probably one of the best combinations to exist. This guy is scary, and you have to totally destroy him to stop his big scary gun from firing. The only problem is that without other big scary things for your opponent to shoot at, I'm thinking he does not last long. AV13 is nice, but does not stand up long to any good concentration of anti-tank fire. Usually you need other scary stuff so your opponent does not focus everything he has, to keep one of these alive. But if you find that your opponents are having a real tough time destroying it, then by all means keep using it.
Whirlwind. I think there are better things to spend points on then this. Whirlwinds are great units if used right, but remember, a list is more then just cool stuff that works well. It's about cool stuff that works well TOGETHER. And I don't see this adding much to your list. Especially when you have your own guys running around in the middle of the board. Perfect fodder for a scattered template.
Assault Squad. Probably one of the easies units to use incorrectly. They are a strong unit when used right, but they NEED support. And Deep Striking them is one of the worst things you can do. You actually have a good chance of reaching your enemy sooner if you start them on the board, PLUS you don't have to worry about 'death by scatter'. And, after you deep strike them, you're opponent has a turn to shoot everything he has at them. He only has to kill 6 of them before the squad becomes too small to do any serious damage. And for their points, a single turn of shooting the plasma pistols as you DS in, is not worth it.
Devastator Squad. If I have ever seen a more useless devastator squad I cannot recall. These models are more dangerous as projectiles thrown at your opponent then they are as a squad of devastators. It's important when using devastators that all of their weapons complement each other. In other words, you want all of their weapons to be for the same purpose, and ideally, have the same range. You have 2 weapons that are anti-tank and 2 that are anti-troop. 2 that are 48" range, and 2 that are 36" range. So every turn you are firing this squad, your wasting half of your firepower.
IMHO, there are only 2 acceptable configurations for a devastator squad. These are: 8 marines with 4 HB's and 8 marines with 4 ML's. The HB squad will strike fear into the heart of any general, no matter how good the save of his troops are, due to the sheer volume of firepower, and 4 ML's will take out most tanks in 1 round of shooting, and if your opponents pulls a surprise and is using something other then marines, the frag missiles will ruin his day. There is a 3rd acceptable configuration if you want your anti-troop devies to have more punch, and that is 3 HB's and 1 plasma cannon. The PC is awfully expensive in a Devastator squad, but having 1 in there can give you a nice high AP shot, especially if you know he is Deep Striking Terminators.
The main problem I see with your list is inefficiency. Either the unit itself (in the case of the devastators) or things that work well on their own, but don't support each other and are wasted.
I listen, but if I listened without adding back my (admittedly inexperienced) critique, I'd never inspire posts like yours.
Given your argument and what I've seen on the table. I think I'm going to wave a merry good-bye to TYBB, even with the fancy conversions I've got for it on most of my tac models. Given that it essentially adds up to two whole marines of cost per tactical squad, I can't say I'm sad to see it go.
What exactly is the ‘tried and true 6 man las squad.’ I’ve never seen one fielded. I still admit to a love for the 10 man ‘fluffy squad.’
I have a chaplain model, and I was going for cheapest. Probably not the best choice in the world. I'll start using the guy and seeing how he handles.
C&P? I think I know what that means, but I want to make sure. The foot-slogging thing represents an issue I keep encountering. I put them in a rhino, they get blown up, entangled and die.
I never use the vengeance rockets if I can help it for the whirlwind, I mostly use just the castellans (which have the fortunate side-effect of not affecting friendly models.) I do see some validity here, it ties in with what the other poster was stating about not having just one of anything. Seems a common theme. Would a Vindicator and a Predator Annihilator be a reasonable combination in your opinion? Or would I need to have two Vindicators?
And if my record is anything, I use them incorrectly. I’ll keep this one in mind. Do you think I should attach the chaplain to this squad if I field him, or keep him as a foot-slogger though?
Now that’s a helpful bit right there. The only thing that was keeping me from the Missile Launcher Devs was the fact they seemed to cost an arm and a leg. Still, thanks for really explaining the particular value of the ‘dedicated purpose’ devastator squad over the ‘grab-bag.’
I can’t disagree with this, at all. I’m debating writing up an army list based on my “typical” loadout (as I said I’m usually fiddling with it) and posting it to the army forum for them to tear into.
Sinjin, he disagreed with one point, and I find his reasoning on that point rather sound, so back off.
Cleanse and Purify is a good trait. I tend to find it working the best though when your using a Drop Pod force though. Having 8-10 guys pop out of a pod with 4 plasma gun shots can be devestating to anything, MEQ or GEQ. If your planning on sticking to a foot slogging force, give it to one or two larger squads, then take a couple smaller squads with a Missile Launcher or Lascannon. Just because you take CAP doesn't mean you have to use it with every squad.
Masters are not failure. Captains are. Giving your entire army Ld 10 is a pretty good thing. Especially since there isn't much sense in wasting points for a Vet Sgt for a Dev squad, which very will likely end up taking target priority tests.
Onto that front, drop the Whirlwind. Against MEQ forces, it's just to unreliable. Take a Dev squad with Missile Launchers. You want a good solid way to stop that Dread force? Take the trait that lets you upgrade your Dev squad to Tank Hunters. Your missiles are now lascannons that your saving a butt ton of points on. 4 tank hunting Krak missiles a turn have an extremely good chance of making sure your dropping 1 Dread a turn. If your not hunting dreads, 4 Krak missiles is another good way to kill a good number of Marines. Especially them nice expensive Gray ones. IMO, you can't go wrong with a tank hunting missile Dev squad. Oh, and if you take the Dev squad, 8 man minimum! Ablative wounds are a must for this unit, because it will be shot at. Especially by the dread player, recognizing it as his biggest threat.
As for your scout squad, keep it or lose it. I tend to have extremely good luck dropping Rhino's with my sniper rifles, and I ALWAYS take my snipers with a missile. Just makes more sense in the event you have to use them for monstrous creature hunting (not to mention another shot at dropping one of those dreads). HB's are good for Bolter scouts.
Thats about all I've got right now, so I hope you can get something good out of this. Best of luck in your future engagements.
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