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I have noticed that most witch hunter tacticas do not have a place for Celestians or a place for Divine Guidance in close combat. I have recently started taking a unit of 8 with a heavy flamer and stormbolter/flamer. I give the Veteran a Master-Crafted Eviscerator and add a Priest with power weapon/armor and a Cannoness (I like the Blessed Weapon). With a priest in the squad the 7 normally armed Celestians get about 12.444444444 hits averaging when you charge. Divine guidance would give you about 2.074074074074 armor ignoring wounds, since they are in combat cover saves do not apply. (I'm sorry but I dont have my codex and dont remember if Celestians have frag grenades and if not take cover possibilities into account in the assault)....anyways...with a regular squad of 10 (2 with flamers) you would get about 15.6666666666 hits and about 2.61111111111 armor ignoring wounds, about 5 of which would ignore cover (from flamers). I think I am being generous here when I give the flamers 5 hits between them as sometimes you dont get very close.
With that said the statistical difference is about .537037037037 as per the benefit of of Divine Guidance is concerned. Now it IS obviously easier to fire rapid fire weapons than it is to get a charge now you have a pretty decent squad in close combat. The heavy flamer, stormbolter and a few pistols (2 bolter pistols and 1 laspistol in all for me) fired on the charge need to be taken into account as well as the Blessed Weapon, power weapon, and Eviscerator. This unit has some staying power with faith points as well as the ability to pack a decent punch.
Now I understand that it isnt quite as efficient per faith point spent but I usually have some left at the end of the game anyways (might be a personal problem). Also its a good unit to place your Cannoness if lonely jump packing her isn't for you and your priest if you are forced to take one or just want to. (Me and my friend are in the process of modelling my priest into a pimp with a cane to represent his power weapon ton include in an army of chicks...seems appropriate to me).
I'm not sure if this is the best way to go with the # of models in the squad but its what Ive been working with. Throwing them in a rhino gives me a nice unit with good character killing power among other things. It might be an expensive unit but my World Eaters friend hates it, along with my Arcos if I get charges.
Interesting post. First off, I'm a huge Cel fan. I have written countless posts defending their use. I have had argued that for 16 points, its far better to upgrade a sob squad to cel's to get the +1 init and WS and to get the holy hatred. I also give my VSS a book and Evis. So I am like you, a huge fan. MCing the evis and giving them an extremely expensive priest just made them priority target. You could buy two more seraphim and a single celestian for that much. If you were sure to be able to get charges out of the cel's then it would be more worth the investment IMO.
But here is the difference, Cels are normally charged vice charging. Its really a shame that we can't give them true grit, a bolt pistol/ccw or better yet true grit with sarissa as a unit upgrade. Then these would be a very nasty CC unit indeed. Unfortunately, I have noticed that my cel's just dont have the option to charge very often. When you come down to it, its better to drive the rhino up and unload with the rapid fire and templates than it is to charge than it would be to charge.
I have found I use DG in CC a lot more with my Seraphim as they do indeed charge quite a bit. With 8, you will usually overcome with numbers of attacks hitting on 4's against marines vs the advantage of holy hatred. Seraphim have an 18" charge range
The fact that cel's have power armor, faith and a hidden fist makes them one of our best tarpits. I wish I was able to charge with them more often. I certainly do charge when the opportunity arises. But thats why I think there isn't a tactica out there to use this strategy. It doen't garner you more than if you rapid fire with them.
I have recently started using celestians more as well. However rather than hoping they get the charge, I configure them so they can take a charge better than a normal battle squad. To this end I take 9 in a Rhino accompanied by a canoness. The VSS has an eviscerator while the canoness has the blessed weapon. Special weapon loadout depends on the opposition. I don't bother with frags as I hardly ever bother to charge. The secret weapon of this squad is a litanies of faith. This lets them survive one phase of being hammered with armour piercing weaponry or marines loaded with power weapons. Quite often this squad survives long enough for the two leaders to kill most or all of the terminators, bikers or command squad that charged hoping to demonstrate their assault leetness.
Another way I find to use celestians is as an additional regular battle squad. Jumpy canonesses are very tricky to use and are not always the best thing against all armies. As an alternative to the BW wielding wargear heavy canoness I take one with just the BoSL and a combi-flamer. She then acts as a sort of super-VSS. It makes for a cel squad only a few points more than a battle squad. This squad works well against opponents who do not assault much like guard or tau. The jumpy canoness is overkill against such opponents. In any case guardsmen and fire warriors go over like ninepins to sisters firepower so there is hardly ever anyone to charge after I've finished placing templates.
Well I usually use my Celestians with a group of regular sisters both in a rhinos (extra armor, smoke and dozer blades). Depending on the situation on rhino will usually shield the other. The normal squad unloads and DG shoots its shots and flamers and the Celestians counter charge...this works well against a lot strong close combat units.
A 101 pt Canoness, a 60 point priest and, and a 191 pt squad of Celestians does seem to be too point heavy...
...but I do need a place to put my priest and Canoness. I don't like the jumpy Canoness very much. I need the priest for Arcos. They serve a pivotal point in my army as any space marines friends of mine refuse to go near them anymore.
I honestly am unsure about DG in close combat and was testing the waters but it seems fine if you have a lot of faith points to use.
I use a similar set up in that I pair up a reg sob squad with a full cel squad. I run 2 cels and 2 sobs and 2 seraphim. Symmetry seems to work well in SoB armies. The value there is when you pay for the VSS upgrade, the regular cel drops from 2 pts to 1.6. Cheap enough that its not devastating if they get thrashed.Well I usually use my Celestians with a group of regular sisters both in a rhinos (extra armor, smoke and dozer blades). Depending on the situation on rhino will usually shield the other. The normal squad unloads and DG shoots its shots and flamers and the Celestians counter charge...this works well against a lot strong close combat units.Here I would differ a bit. Your points for that unit are hard to tally up with out the exact kit and I come up with a different number.A 101 pt Canoness, a 60 point priest and, and a 191 pt squad of Celestians does seem to be too point heavy...
Looking at what you wrote:
1 Canoness 101 running a cloak, blessed weapon, book and a bolt pistol? I personally like a plas pistol on a rhino canoness. It makes good use of a BS 5.
2. Priest with power armor and power weapon for 60. Incidently, why bother with power armor here? Mixed armor rules and he isn't an IC mean he will get the same save, so you can save the points. (Mixed armor universal special rule)
3. 7 cels with MC evis hf and flamer I have a score of 172
4. Rhino with extra armor and smoke is 58.
By my calculations, thats 391 points. That is an extremely inviting target and I would shoot quite a bit at it to erase them.
But saying that, it is indeed a powerful unit. And will be a suprise for arrogant marines.Sounds reasonable to me. Priests are too expensive in the codex IMO. If you take multiple exotic units, their cost does drop a bit. Your reason makes sense as he is required for army composition....but I do need a place to put my priest and Canoness. I don't like the jumpy Canoness very much. I need the priest for Arcos. They serve a pivotal point in my army as any space marines friends of mine refuse to go near them anymore.I have found this to be very true. I generally get one good CC DG situation per game. Unfortunately, in my experience, its seraphim and not celestians that generally get the opportunity because seraphim are a bit more offensive when it comes to CC. They don't have to worry about inability to charge out of a rhino and have a 18" range. DG in CC can be a great tactic and I too find it often not thought of by many sisters players.I honestly am unsure about DG in close combat and was testing the waters but it seems fine if you have a lot of faith points to use.
I don't mean this to be a discussion on your army composition. How your army fits and works is up to you. The idea of Cel's and DG in CC is a good one and I don't want to make it sound bad. Every time I get a lot of hits, I definitely weigh in the odds if DG might be the battle turner. Most of the time, it is when I can get 10-12 hits. That way, you should get @ 2 power weapon results. Thats very worth it.
THat's not how mixed armor works. If he comes around to take a hit he still uses his own save. Mixed Armor does mean he almost never actually takes a wound, until the squad gets whittled down anyway.Mixed armor rules and he isn't an IC mean he will get the same save, so you can save the points
While Celestians certainly have a better chance of rolling up good results for DG than regular sisters, I don't really follow the line of the discussion. You take the DG test after rolling to hit. If you get lots of hits, use DG, if you don't, don't. It doesn't matter what unit type or if you're shooting or melleeing. Doesn't come up as much in shooting since you tend to be using a template so you have to test before tohit rolls.
Model for model Seraphim will still get more hits on the charge unless your target happens to be WS9 or more.
*Chuckles* Well yes but thats pretty much the idea. He would be paying 10 points for armor when it would take torrent of fire to actually put the hurt on the priest . But for all intents and purposes, he is well hidden in a size 10 squad. By the time he will realistically have to take an armor check, the squad will be toast anyway.THat's not how mixed armor works. If he comes around to take a hit he still uses his own save. Mixed Armor does mean he almost never actually takes a wound, until the squad gets whittled down anyway.What he was pointing out is that a lot of people forget that DG becomes power weapon hits in melee. His idea was that a DG Cel squad would give a lot of opportunity to roll DG because they hit on 3's. And While this is very true, generally a 10 size squad will get 11 attacks if they get charged. If the VSS has an evis, then the 9 rolls left (6 should hit and you should get 1 DG out of those). If Cels charge it obviously gets better.While Celestians certainly have a better chance of rolling up good results for DG than regular sisters, I don't really follow the line of the discussion. You take the DG test after rolling to hit. If you get lots of hits, use DG, if you don't, don't. It doesn't matter what unit type or if you're shooting or melleeing. Doesn't come up as much in shooting since you tend to be using a template so you have to test before tohit rolls.
However, cel units at least for me, don't get to charge a lot because they are usually jumping out and firing and usually get counter charged the next turn. Seraphim however are more of a charging unit because they have jump range and mobility. So I do use DG a fair bit in CC with seraphim.I totally agree with that.Model for model Seraphim will still get more hits on the charge unless your target happens to be WS9 or more.
I am also a big fan of Cels, due to their "Hatred" rule which helps in CC a lot IMHO. If you are treating them as normal SOBs and not putting too many extra points into them, they last longer in the counter-charge that every Rhino-bound squad is a victim of. I always run my lists with 2 SOBs and 1 Cel squads to start with, so that is 30 Sisters which is a pretty solid start to any 1000pts list.
As said above, use Faith as the situation calls for, and do not overspend your points (put too much hope) on any one squad. There are no wonder-weapons (as the WWII history tells us), and although hitting on 3's they are still T3, S3 models...
I am to believe that a priests counts as a character that joins a unit and can be singled out...or does he count as part of the unit and the opponent would have to attack the squad in general if they wish to eventually damage him?
rules for characters are on pages 50 and 51 of the rulebook.
Yes i do believe this is a lot of points for 1 unit and although it is not exactly as effective as its points cost, but it does catch a ton of people off guard which is something.
Any other suggestions? I do have a priest and i personally think that a jumpy Canoness would be too expensive.
Last edited by joecool; September 11th, 2007 at 15:59. Reason: wasn't done before i hit submit :silly:
The priest is treated as an upgrade character. Note he does not have the 'independant character' rule anywhere in his profile.
Sorry if I seemed combative before. What I meant is, the 'right' time to use DG in assault is when you drop some dice and see a big ole pile of hits. That may be more likely for celestians in general, but whip up the odds real quick on 7 celestians vs 10 battle sisters rolling 14 hits on the charge =). Many a carnifex owner has wished he'd paid for T7 instead of extended carapace when my sisters got done with him.