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I just can't beat this 1500 point list. Notice that these are not "all-comer" lists, but are tailored to kill the other. My opponent plays with a Land Raider, 6 Killer Kans, a large Mega Armor HQ squad in his LR, a Mek Boy with 5 or so mega blasters, and 4-5 other squads with as many rokkits as he can take.
I play with:
Brother Captain w/ NFW and chainfist, 4 GKT, 1 psycannon
Canonness w/ inferno pistol, eviscerator, jump pack, 2+ armor (for his land raider)
2x inquisitor w/ master-crafted psycannon
Callidus Assassin (not normally, but I fear the Mek boys)
2x Justicar w/ melta bombs, 8 PAGK
2x Dreadnaught w/ assault cannon/ML (they never survive to use their DCCW)
Melta torpedo (just trying it out- last game it killed NOTHING)
Basically, any static units of mine are bombarded with rokkits and big shootas (heavy weapon inquisitor squads better go first, because they won't get another chance), and mobile units are prone to assault from his Kans and his INCREDIBLY hard to kill HQ squad. Also, I haven't killed his land raider the past five games. Help is appreciated.
Well I dont know how much or how you do terrian but it is going to be the most helpfull thing for you. The callidus should do fine and I dont know what the save is for the mega armor ( guessing 2+ ) if this is the case you may want to change your strike to lance instead of melta. Also when using a strike it is best to place it inbetween some of his units then over one of them as it always scatter and this way you have a better chance of getting a good hit. Other then that all i can say is maybe try a shooty list with lots of psycannons and just stay at a distance and in cover if you can.
- You must set fire to water or you will be extinguished.
I think terminators are hugely over priced against orks, I would drop them...that is going to make his mega armored orks tough, but I think you should be able to storm bolter them to death without a problem. Second I am becoming less and less of a fan of dreds all the time, they just seem to die, especially against all those rockets.
So for the list I would drop the extra termies and the chainfist (keep the psycannon BC), dump the dreads, and the cannoness (just because she doesn't fit without any other sisters). With those points I think I would pick up 2 or 3 melta stormies in rhinos (anti landraider for cheap), and then stock up your PAGK if you have any points left.
This still leaves you the callidus to take out their shooters, 3 psycannons for anti kan (oh and I would lose the master crafted...it just seems excessive to me. Then out range him (his rockes only shoot 24 and the rest of his guns aren't that good. If he chases you with the raider you run up and melt it; then go to town on the mega armored boys...they will fall to shooting.
Ouch. I know how you feel - I got thoroughly stomped by a 9 Kan, 1 Dread and a pile of boyz list at a tournament earlier this year. And I was running Marines with proper tankbusting equipment!
If I had been able to build a tailored list, there'd be no problem... But that sort of list is rather like a Tyranid Godzilla list - your basic all-comers list can hurt them, but needs a lot of luck to do significant damage. GK lists have it even worse due to the general S6 upper limit.
Army advice? That's kinda tricky. The key to facing that sort of list, IMHO, is twofold:
A) find a way to deal with the armour. Your Dreadnoughts are useful (though maybe make one a TLLC/ML version for heavy tankbusting duty?), and while the BC can do some real damage with that chainfist, it's somewhat of a desperation option. Melta Stormtroopers might be a viable option here.
Get as many bodies on the field (GKT's = too expensive!) and shots going down range as possible to thin out the orks. GK's are great for this, and a Psycannon toting Inquisitor is nothing to scoff at, but you may find that you're better served with blocks of Melta-heavy Stormtroopers (Meltas for the Kans, Hellguns for everything else) and Inquisitors with Storm Bolters and multiple HB servitors. You might also try an allied SoB Dominion squad loaded out with lots of flamers - get that little ball of flaming death amongst the Boyz and watch the BBQ!
Beyond that, Lyzaru's pretty much got it right - Skillful use of terrain and denying Line of Sight to the worst of his forces is going to be critical. Best case scenario, you can poke a squad out from cover to tear into a small section of the army while leaving most of those Rokkits and such without a shot back at you. It never works totally, and eventually it breaks down, but limiting your exposure to incoming fire is absolutely vital here.
I too have suggestions as one of my newest opponents is Orks and I have yet to beat him.
I'm finding that I like throwing in my sisters of battle for there flamey goodness, but after this week I'll make a final purchase putting my GK army up to 1500pts, at that point, I'll be using my incinerators.
Dreads can do good in there own right, I'm using a standard dread with assault cannon/storm bolter, more then that and he loses too many shots, ocasionally I put the TLLC/ML on him, but up against a leman russ it does little good.
GKT's aren't good against orks at all, psycannons, are great but if you get stuck in combat he will own.
One thing I found in the last game I played, he had an HQ thing that gave his guys a cover save, I destroyed most of that squad with flamers. Assaulted with a unit of GKs, and go figure by the end of his assault phase only my justicar is left, well that justicar took out all but 3 models in the squad, took out near 7 alone.
Sisters ended up dying pretty quickly being only five left, but overall it was a much better game for me having been the first time that I had even come close to beating him.
Legion Of Everblight: Abyslonia
Protectorate of Menoth: Grand Exemplar Kreoss
If you still want to use an "all-comers" list with GKTs in it, just keep these guys at maximum range and let the shrouding save them from getting killed. You'd be better off with a psycannon on the BC in this case. Frankly, against most ork armour, S6 is going to be enough. Let the kans assault, you're faster and you'll kill them in melee on the first go.
But in general, against hordes (like orks): Shoot! Shoot for all you're worth. Don't charge into assault unless it is actually saving your butt somehow, or you can wipe out a squad in one go. Otherwise, avoid it. Especially with expensive units like GKTs.I wouldn't take a lone Canoness at all, honestly. Unless you're also taking Seraphim, I'd leave her at home each and every game. There are better places you can put your points. More PAGKs are what this list needs!Originally Posted by CaesarSneezy
Regarding the looted land raider, ignore it. Seriously, ignore it. It's not very good at killing infantry -- all it has beyond the lascannons (just two shots there, max) is a TL heavy bolter, not very fearsome at all -- and isn't even that hot at killing armour if it moves. Kill off the kans and troops, and you'll win the game handily. The raider is actually a very expensive weight dragging down the Ork list. Make him pay for that expense by rendering it essentially useless through simply ignoring it.Not bad, but one =I= too many. Keep it simple, just the one. I'd also drop the master-crafting. It can help, but it costs you most of a GK, which is going to be much more useful. Dropping both MC and one inquisitor nets you three more PAGKs. That's more survivability, more shots, and more melee attacks.Originally Posted by CaesarSneezyNice.Originally Posted by CaesarSneezyI'd drop the melta bombs. You don't need them at all. You can kill all ork armour in assault if it comes down to it with your NFWs.Originally Posted by CaesarSneezyI really dislike this setup, as to even use the AC, you have to be in short range, and at that range, you need the DCCW for inevitable assaults rather than the ML. Keeping dreads alive is all about smart use of terrain, as mentioned earlier. While 99% of the time it's better to make your dreads long-range anti-armour threats with TLLC/ML, against orks, always take AC/DCCW dreads instead. Not only does it save points for more troops, but it's more effective at slaughtering hordes.Originally Posted by CaesarSneezyThere's nothing wrong with the melta torpedo. You can't expect it to kill much in any game. You need to use it as a psychological weapon. Use it to force your opponent to move to locations of your choosing, knowing that you've denied a significant chunk of the board to him. Set yourself up to cover those lanes and pour fire into them. If you're playing on extremely low-terrain boards, however, then this is not going to be so useful, and I'd trade it off for more PAGKs.Originally Posted by CaesarSneezy
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
Thanks for all the help. Yeah, GKTs aren't really a help unless going into CC with his mega armor (and they usually lose anyway). I can't just ignore his land raider, because when he unloads his HQ into my front line I lose the game. Stormtroopers have never done me any good, and I don't have a rhino. I don't really need any more GK- his infantry is not my problem. The canonness is just too cool to let go, unfortunately, and she's done AMAZING things in the past (took out 2 hammerheads and a crisis suit one game). I think a unit of seraphim would compliment her nicely. That way I'll be able to direct the flow with the melta torpedo, set up my army to protect the avenue left to him, and wreak havok in the back with my jump packs and assassin.
Here's my list now:
Brother Captain w/ NFW and psycannon
Canonness w/ inferno pistol, eviscerator, jump pack, and 2+ armor
2x Inquisitors w/ psycannon
2x Justicar and 8 PAGK
1 VSS w/ eviscerator, 7 Seraphim w/ 2 inferno pistols
Dreadnaught w/ TLLC/ML
Dreadnaught w/ Assault Cannon/DCCW
I should be playing today. I'll let you know what happened.
He still had his 700 pt. HQ squad mostly intact and his Mekboys. I did take out his landraider. Mostly I just screwed up by not staying away from his guys. Don't assault Orks or get within range of being assaulted. I always forget that.
Yeah as tempting as it is to assault orks, let them come to you, think of it this way, by the time they get to you, there shouldn't be half as many as there were to start with, eldar on the other hand you do need to move forward, cause they will just sit back and snipe you.
Legion Of Everblight: Abyslonia
Protectorate of Menoth: Grand Exemplar Kreoss
CaesarSneezy, has your opponent been using four or more kustom mega blasta's a turn from the same unit? If so you should have him show you where it says he can do that because last I checked there was no ork squad or unit that could lay down that many KMB shots a turn.
One of the biggest things I have ever seen about some grey knight players is that they occasionally forget to make use of the shrouding. Have you been making sure that he makes those rolls to hit your grey knight squads?
Personally, if you really wanted to try and catch him by surprise I would suggest going all grey knight with two psycannon toting brother captains, two or three eight man PAGK squads, one or two (depending on how many PAGK's taken) mini-purgation squads, two hellfire dreadnoughts, and a lance strike. (With all of that you should even have points left over for something else, or if you only go with one HQ then you'd be able to play around with 143 points in a list with all of the stuff above.)
What on earth does the rest of your opponents list look like if he's using a 700pt HQ backed up with a land raider? That only gives him 550pts to work with for the rest of his army. (Actually I think its between 270 and 340 for the rest of his army after the six kans are used.) If your opponent has really been fielding the kans, that HQ, and the land raider all at the same time then something may be very off. I don't think he could get more than three squads with nine rokkits between them after all of that. Next time you play him definately have him show you the point totals for all his stuff, cause if he is using everything you say than that list of his may be 1850 or 2k. (Four or five basic ten man shooty ork squads with three rokkits runs at about 450-550pts. That combined with the HQ and land raider is the entire army and he still has the nine kans and big mek squad yet to be included.)
Do you think you can either get a list of what he uses in his games or his actual list to put up here? Any ork player here could give you an idea of the army total if you did that.
Wraith, your sure you went up against nine killa kans and one ork dreadnought? (That would be odd because orks don't have access to four heavy support options like the old iron warriors did; and nine killa kans is already three heavy slots.)
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