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My mates have just got me interested in WH 40K and i thought the DH looked really cool. Can you tell me the pros and cons of DH and a pure DH 500 points list? Thanks
Well it depends on if you want to use just Inquisitorial models, GK models or a mix of the two.
If you use just Inquisitorial models, you'll be able to get more models for cheaper points, but you'll lack on close combat effectiveness. On the other hand you can get guns that will more easily kill models.
If you took GKs you would have one of the most neutral armies in the game, reason for that is GKs are both good at shooting and assault, and excel in neither. They are more expensive points wise so you will have less models, but the shrouding protects them much more then the regular Inquisitorial models.
If you take a mix of the two, you can get guns that stand a chance of killing models besides your own, you get an offensive factor and you still get access to the goodies of both parts/the whole codex.
Legion Of Everblight: Abyslonia
Protectorate of Menoth: Grand Exemplar Kreoss
Welcome to the DH! Briefly, I think the DH summary looks like this:
* Exceptionally nice miniatures
* Almost limitless customized modeling opportunities with Inquisitors and retinues
* Rich fluff
* Almost limitless list-building options, thanks to allies/inductee rules
* Very few models required to play a large force, so minimal effort is necessary to field a painted army
* Challenging, unique playstyle that plays like no other army and that rewards creative tactical flexibility in-game
* Challenging, unique playstyle that is difficult to master
* No inherently strong/competetive builds like many other armies have (e.g., "Nidzilla", mech Eldar)
* Most of the supplied models in the army are metal, making it difficult to customize/convert them
If you're looking for army lists, simply browse the Army List subforum stickied at the top of this forum. There won't be much you can do if you're going to focus squarely on Grey Knights at that points level, but if you're willing to incorporate inquisitors and storm troopers, then options open up a little.
So ... if you're looking for a challenge, you've come to the right place. At first blush, the army (built around Grey Knights) looks a lot like Space Marines of a different color. Don't be fooled! We don't play anything like the smurfs, and attempting to mimic their army lists and tactics will get you killed right quick.
Contrary to popular opinion, GKs are NOT the games best assaulters. We're better than average, for certain, and can beat up many, perhaps even most, infantry units. But the best close combatants? Not by a long shot. The new harlequins, a number of 'nid units, anything with furious charge, anything with a higher initiative, all these and more will often kick our butts in close combat. That's why we have stormbolters, which are very nearly the game's best standard troop firearm. GKs can lay down a ferocious amount of excellent anti-infantry firepower, all while on the march.
GKs are the game's best synthesis of assault capability and shooting prowess. We will always have some kind of advantage over our foes. Enemies that are superior assaulters can definitely be shot down by our stormbolters, and enemies that can rip us to shreds from afar are invariably cut down like so much grass once we close for the assault. The tactical challenge is to identify which approach to use against which enemy units and work to press the appropriate advantage.
Another indication that GKs were not meant to be purely assault troops is the fact that they have True Grit. That means that we gain no advantage for charging, yet neither do we suffer any adverse effects when being charged. Our close combat capability is level no matter what the situation. Tactically, this means that we are not required to commit to charging or closing to assault against most enemies. True Grit, combined with our stormbolters, mean that it is often wiser for us to stay mobile, shooting all the time, thinning down the enemy, and forcing them to come to us. This is especially true when facing superior assaulters. We should backpedal, "retreating" in any direction, until we are forced to receive the charge in cover, where, at the worst, we will fight simultaneously with those nasty close combatants. Ideally, they will have been thinned down by stormbolter fire so that we can quickly dispatch the remainder and continue on to the next unit.
You mentioned allies. Assuming you're employing GKs, that means you can't ally in space marines units. You don't want them anyway; GKs are the Emperor's Finest. Pure GK armies are perfectly viable armies, but extremely challenging to play. Your typical army should use dreadnoughts with TLLC/ML for your anti-armour, the vast majority of your force should be vanilla PAGKs -- no special weapons, as they cost you points yet rob your GKs of everything that distinguishes them from bog-standard space marines -- and a modest amount of GKTs in your HQ. I like psycannons there, and most of the time I footslog them for mobile, resilient dakka. (The shrouding combined with termie armour makes them virtually untargetable and indestructible.) An occasional use of a purgation squad with 4 psycannons, or Troops "mini-purgation" squads of 5-6 PAGKs and 2x psycannons can be useful, too, as static fire support squads (the shrouding works very well at extreme range), but special weapons in GK units should be the exceptions, not the rule. I don't favor incinerators at all, myself. Again, they reduce your GK down to a wildly expensive but unremarkable space marine, and incinerators are only good for pre-charge kicks. I'd rather have the additional stormbolter shots, high-strength melee attacks, and even additional GK models instead. That'll generally net you more kills (especially in the assault toward which you're heading were you to keep incinerators).
Generally, I would recommend avoiding the use of land raiders and land raider crusaders. They cost you entire squads of GKs, and we need all the models we can get. Certainly they have their partisans and their uses, but honestly, employing them makes playing an already difficult and challenging army even more difficult and challenging. I'd use them only if I was the treadiest of tread-heads. They change the nature of your game entirely, becoming the stars of the show and sidelining your troops to a secondary role.
Next to consider is the "pure DH" force, where you might employ several non-GK units. All of them have their place, depending on the style of list you want to employ. Inquisitors make absolutely deadly devastator-like fire support teams for a bargain price (psycannon on the inquisitor, 0-1 plasma cannon servitor, 2-3 heavy bolter servitors, 2 sages, mystic, maybe another sage or more mystics, maybe acolytes with bolters), and heavy fire support is something that GKs don't do particularly well. Don't bother with assaulty inquisitors, despite the attraction of doing so. Hereticus inquisitors do it so much better that if you want an assaulty iquisitor, ally one in from the witch hunters instead. Still, just know that the points you spend on assaulty squads that aren't GKs won't be nearly as effective for the points, especially when they're mere humans. But certain builds of hereticus inquisitors can be particularly nasty or just plain fun. (I like the maxed out power-weapon squad and the one tooled up for taking down monstrous creatures and walkers that uses acolytes with mancatchers, combat servitors, and an inquisitor with an eviscerator.)
If you're taking an inquisitor, you might as well take one or more assassins, too. The Eversor is a bargain and a deadly unit in his own right. Just point him in the right direction and watch the carnage. The Callidus is more like a scalpel than a sledgehammer, requires care to use, but is just plain cool, and is perfect for disrupting the enemy. I don't so much like the Vindicare, he's not reliable enough, depending too much on the opponent and lucky dice to be useful, but he does have his partisans. Just avoid the Culexus, however. He requires babysitters to be effective, and that actually hobbles most DH lists. Death Cult assassins should either be avoided entirely or bought in large groups to be effective. However, think of the PAGKs or GKTs that you can buy with those points! And GKs are far more resilient and at least as deadly, not to mention capable of shooting. I use DCAs occasionally, and they are particularly useful when coordinated with an Eversor or Callidus, but they don't bring much to the table for the DH save their infiltration and unreasonable fear they seem to cause opponents. Valuable tools, no doubt, and not to be overlooked, but don't think about DCAs until you've shored up your core infantry.
ISTs offer two things to the DH player that GKs cannot match: high-strength/low-AP weaponry and cheap tanks, with the Chimera capable of fulfilling the role of independent light tank. Always take advantage of these tools or you're wasting your investment into the ISTs. 2x meltas in a Rhino make great armour-hunters (and lessen your dependence on TLLC/ML dreads for anti-armour), and 2x plasma with a Chimera can set up solid firebases and take down heavy infantry and light armour. Don't bother with vet sgts. By the time you pay for them, you could've had another PAGK model; there ain't nothing an IST vet sgt can do that a vanilla PAGK can't do better.
Finally, there's the "DH + Allies" army. This is the style of army that is probably "the most competitive" because you can tailor your unit choices so fine that you can cover for any weakness and/or emphasize any strength. This army has more options than almost any other 40K army, so go nuts! Typically, inducted guard are used to supply the DH with cheap bodies and much-needed heavy weaponry, particularly in the form of lascannons, missile launchers, and plasma. Take two troops choices, and you can get sentinels and a leman russ, both very valuable. And pretty much anything you might consider allying in from the Witch Hunters will prove handy. Personally, I favor Seraphim kitted out with inferno pistols and a VSS bearing an eviscerator. These girls bring much-needed speed and armour-hunting capability -- not to mention the ability to take down heavy infantry -- all of which fill in weak spots in a primarily GK DH force. But it's hard to go wrong with any allied Sisters unit.
One final note about units: there's always the option to include an orbital strike. This can be a fun and valuable addition, but be warned: it's a psychological weapon only, not one that you should expect to kill much. But, if you can afford sacrificing the heavy support slot (a BIG "if"), I'd consider taking one. The melta torpedo is hands-down the preferred choice, as it is capable of threatening both enemy infantry (insta-kill MEQs!) and armour; even with a glancing, half-strength hit, the 2d6 armour penetration far exceeds anything the lance strike can do. Speaking of which, the lance strike is useful ony if you know you're facing a primarily infantry army with almost no armour. The lance just isn't threatening even to transports save through extreme luck. I'm not even going to mention the barrage strike, just don't bother. Orbital strikes are particularly fun in Cities of Death games, or where there's a river or road on the board, or perhaps a key bridge or two, and then watch your opponent scramble. Your typical static fire line army -- like most IG armies -- also hate it when you target the strike to a piece of terrain in their deployment zone. Again, don't expect much in the way of actual kills from the OS, but as a psychological weapon it's tough to beat.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
Thanks, I think ill go with both GK and Inquisitorial troops
Hey there, Ive just started with DH after playing Tau for a while and then moving into fantasy with Empire. I have to say that the modles are the best Ive seen, I just love painting them.
Ive started with 1500 points of pure Grey Knights, I might do some Guard later, but I just want to get used to using GK first.
Hope your army works out ok.
Best of luck