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After the absolutly fabulous response to my Stormtroopers or Hardened veterans? post i have decided to investigate other peoples opinions in the guard ELITES choices (stating with ogryns). Elites are my favorite part of any army as these are the troop types that only that particular army has acsess to. For example, in the HQ, most armys have acsess to make a super hard, near invinceible unit.An Inqusitor and retinue, Broodlord and his gang of super 'stealers are just two examples. So, I finish by asking, are Ogryns worth taking? I am a bit wary as a krak missle or similar gun (there are a few about) can blow one up instantly, turning it to a red smuge or a smoking crater! Bye Bye 25 points of model.
Thanks for your time.
Proud commander of the Calamarian 81st'Hmmm..., I don't seem to have enough guns'
YOu make a valid point for not taking them, but then again load five of them, a commissar, and a presit into a chimria and you have your self a pretty decent assult squad. Barrel head long the first round towards the enemies line, unload and deploy smoke and shoot. Then in the next turn shoot again and jump into assult. Now you cant be targeted by guns and the enemy has a thorn in the side of his battle line.
Just a couple of things to sau about Ogryns, first of which is that 25 points is not that much for a model that has so much impact on the table top. Bearing in mind that a terminator is usually twice as expensive the Ogryn certainly looks more dangerous. That should be a big factor in deciding if you want to use these guys or not. You can also get ten of them in the 10 Ogryn box set that came out with Apocalypse and I am sure that you will find most people are pretty impressed by the new miniatures.
My second point when it comes to Ogryn is that they can do something which you should never expect any of the other units in your army to do, handle an assault. With their capable ripper guns and decent stat line a handful of Ogryn in the right place can be a nasty surprise for any oppossing commander.
Personally I like the new miniatures which means I will probably get quite a few, this is also the reason that I own 10 Piranhas... I love the models and why would I not buy lots of what I like?
I suspect that the quality of the model range will secretly be a big factor in many of the opinions shared on this forum.
Every other Elites choice is superior to Ogryns.
They lack offense and aren't hard enough to kill to be worth the cost. For the price of 3 Ogryns, I can have 4 plasma guns or 1 heavy and 10 bodies.
I must have missed your point because I read through the last post and couldn't see anything that answered the question. We already know about the points efficiency thing but since 40k is a game and not a maths test very few people are solely interested in the whether or not a troops option is the most efficient available. If they were then everyone would field essentially the same army is any given situation. Since people take create incredibly varied lists it must be fair to say that there are other factors.
You do not appear to have given any consideration to this. What about assembling, converting and painting larger miniatures? What about their impact on the tabletop, the fluff, theme of an army, cohesive nature of the force and the enjoyment factor of both the hobby aspects and game play aspects of using Ogryns? I can tell you that no one really enjoys fighting against the most effective collection of troops possible unless they are in a tournament or league. More often than not you play games with people that you call your friends, so why not do what you want and have fun doing it.
It is too easy to get caught up in winning when the majority of those involved in this hobby participate because they enjoy talking about it, thinking about it, collecting, converting, painting and playing the game, in that order.
As I said before I see where you are coming from and your point is valid, but that is precisely why it wasn't particularly helpful. Ogryns are huge mutants in an army full of uniform troops and represent the opportunity to include some grunt muscle and a great way to satisfy the inner Ork and have a bit of fun with an army that sometimes seems to always be piles of army men and tanks that all look a bit samey.
Do you see where I am coming from?
I see Ogryns as being similar to rough riders- on the face of it there are more 'effective' units, particularly as most IG forces tend to be of the sit back and shoot variety, but they can adda lot of flavour and tactical interest to your standard IG army.
As far as I can see they add a bit more oomph, and a different CC prospect that most opponents wont expect, there are a number of new strategic opportunities that arise from including ogryns, and the models look very nice.
I for one will now be getting hold of some, now the models are a lot nicer!
PLAN CLAN MAN!!
He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man- S. Johnson
It seems the original poster is very interested in the effectiveness of the unit more so than the painting converting etc. I think it's you who have misread the question for in my eyes Fable has indeed answered it.So, I finish by asking, are Ogryns worth taking? I am a bit wary as a krak missle or similar gun (there are a few about) can blow one up instantly, turning it to a red smuge or a smoking crater! Bye Bye 25 points of model.
As for my opinions on Ogryns, I am with Fable. They have no place in a take all comers tournament list. They are effective against selective enemies, but due to their cost, tactical inflexibility, and lack of efficient delivery methods that all assault troops require I feel they're easily surpassed by other options. Grey knights for example are of the same cost, and better up close against a wider range of enemies (mostly due to the Justicar ignoring armour saves) and in addition they can perform a valuable fire support role, neglecting the need to get the unit stuck in ASAP.That is a massive points sink that will not make its returns. The cost of that unit is over 300pts, is unlikely to reach it's destination in a chimera in one piece, and will have its arse handed back to it in pieces by a dedicated assault unit that is cheaper than itself. Raptors, Beserkers etc.YOu make a valid point for not taking them, but then again load five of them, a commissar, and a presit into a chimria and you have your self a pretty decent assult squad. Barrel head long the first round towards the enemies line, unload and deploy smoke and shoot. Then in the next turn shoot again and jump into assult. Now you cant be targeted by guns and the enemy has a thorn in the side of his battle line.
Then there is the other problem of that unit possibly being illegal, I don't have my Codex here but I'm fairly sure from memory that Advisors cannot be attached to Ogryn squads. The Commissar could however get around this through the doctrine, but the Priest if I'm right is up the creek without a paddle. Even if I'm wrong here, they have an Aces High rule which means you'd have to buy a minimum of another 2 priests to attach to the HQ command squad and the Infantry Platoon Command Squad before you can attach them to other units.
... only triumph could turn pooing his pants into a good thing..
I thought it was interesting that you didn't quote the part concerning the unique nature of the elite options available to the Imperial Guard. Both Storm Troopers and Veterans are similar to regular guard and simply do what the rest of your army can do, only better. By asking the question he did Jakey indicated that he is aready aware of the vulnerability of Ogryns and their relative points cost. What he asked is whether they are worth taking. Since he was already aware of their vulnerability and points values it follows that mentioning these points would be secondary. Other considerations, like interest, variety and table-top impressiveness would take priority.
After all I don't use Ogryn because they are more effective. I use them because they are fun and when all goes well they can make a mess of enemy units at close range or in hand to hand combat. Are you trying to tell me that veterans or Storm Troopers would not get owned by Raptors or Berserkers?
And since when were Grey Knights an elite choice for the Imperial Guard? I seem to recall that they are an ally option...
Somewhere in my gamer brain there is a threshold between what I'll use in order to win vs. what I'll take because I like the model or the story.
Ogryns are simply not efficient enough for me to validate the loss of effectiveness. For my 2000 point army, I already plan on taking an Inquisitor Lord with retinue. It fits my backstory and I plan on enjoying the modelling/painting.
However, no matter the build, I can't seem to make it an efficient unit. I figure I lose about 50-100 points of effectiveness with it in 2000 points. 2.5% - 5% sacrifice is doable, in my mind.
As for Ogryns, they have two uses:
They are a tarpit for low strength melee, like harlies or banshees. Assuming a unit of harlies doesn't just cause enough would to wipe the squad anyway, they can actually last a turn and maybe kill 1 or 2 harlies... For the cost, there are still better plans, like throwing line squads at them.
They are a actually able to hurt higher toughness enemies that have poor saves. The lack of monsterous status or power weapons really hurts them here. However, they actually can wound spawn, 'fexes, etc. They still die quickly though.
If you forced me to take an elites choice and didn't allow me to take 3x Vets, Storm Troopers or even Ratlings, I'd be left with Ogryns and the Enginseer. I'd have to seriously consider taking the Enginseer...
Last edited by RecklessFable; October 24th, 2007 at 19:22.
Worth the while? Probably not. Fable and Triumph have gone over why they aren't that viable. For CC in the IG, Rough Riders are probably your most solid choice.
I think you need to spend more time on your floor.
2500 Black Templars