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I play a friend who fields a space wolf force, around 1500 points normally. it has blood claws, rhino's, jump packs, bikers and attack bikes. His wolf lord and priest are on bikes as well.
I play a Ultramarine force that just cant reallly get to grips with his and struggles to do anything (have yet to beat him in about 15 games), the two forces i normally field are,
(A) a shooty army. 2 squads marines in razors,scouts, landspeeder, land raider ( vet squad inside it ) and normal HQ's.
( a drop pod army. 3 squads of marines, two terminater squads (with assault cannons), land speeder, jump packs, and normal HQ's
Not going to list everything as i think its mainly tactics im getting wrong .
His wolf scouts give me a right problms as they nail anything i leave near the rear table edge and his bikers just seem to mop up eveything i throw at them and then continue to steam roller over everything else. His melee attacks just cream everything.
Anyway what im asking is when you face a space wolf force how do you combat it? as its started to get really boring getting hammered all the time.
cheers for any feed back and advice ;Y
( and sorry for any spelling/grammer)
well im am a space wolf player so to help i think i can tell you what burns me up. One thing that i found to be very helpful with space wolves is the combination of transprts and deadly close combat. When rhinos go full speed ahead and pop their smoke, its a good assumption that you need to kill that quickly ( as said by my opponents.) BUt what happens when you take away their transports and knock them off of their bikes? Bikers and transports in addition to the mandatory 1 squad of GS that the wolf player is forced to get is expensive, so their are 2 things i suggest...
1.) lower the point cost of the game...its much easier to exploit weaknesses when you are playing in a 500-1000 point game and fine tune your tactics before going into a full scale war. By playing in a couple of those smaller games you get a chance to see how your elite units coincide with your troops...basically a whos good and whos not. This also forces your opponent to shorten his blitzkreig and hopefully employ new tactics as well...(sorry mate but im for wolves all the way) (laugh out loud)
2.) Take the fight to him...dont allow those blood claw to charge you, at ANY COST! i dont care if you have to charge them with a squad of devastators...if they get the jump on you, your toast...end of story. I also find that dreadnoughts are very helpful in the fight against my space wolves. Losing a bike to a lascannon or getting eaten in close combat by a furioso isnt my idea of a good time. ALSO...one thing ive come to respect greatly is this ratio: strength of shots/amount * toughness...DO NOT and i repeat DO NOT focus on only lascannons and missile launchers because you think that those can kill bikers really good...I found that the amount of shots i take against average 4/5 toughnesses makes a much bigger difference. Id rather have 3 shots wound and they fail one save than 1 lascanon shot hit and roll that one to wound. Believe me on this mate.
As far as his wolf scouts go, i would suggest that you set him up...have something such as termies come in on reserve and put them where his scouts are....have a land raider crusader parked by your deployment zone....get the hell away from your deployment zone...all these have worked wonders against me which is why i dont really use em anymore. Well mate i hope that this helps....if u need any clarifacations just messagae me...sorry bout spelling/grammer as usual. Good luck.:C
A feral Ork is a happy Ork.
I think that possibly your biggest problem is lack of numbers, especially in your first list - I don't think you have enough bodies on the ground - instead you seem to be going for the shiny units.
As TaipanWolf said volume of fire is often better than high strength, low shots. I almost never take lascannons etc in squads (missiles yes, but not las).
Try dropping the vets and land raider in the first list and investing in more troops, maybe even drop the razors for a game and force him to come entirely to you - keep an assault squad or 2 handy to deal with his wolf scouts (normal scouts should work fine for this) and bassically counter attack or lock him in combat with one unit so you can charge in with another.
In terms of target priority I would focus mainly on the bike squad with lord/priest and the blood claws - if you can make the claws walk early on you will give yourself a bit more room to breathe
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain (It's time to roll the dice)- Mattrim Cauthon
I have to agree with what everyone is saying... you want to get more firepower in the army... bolters are still a great gun. Sometimes its worth investing in a few land speeders as well and use them to harry his transports. They also can get behind them and some real problems... and in doing this you want to take the tornado pattern.
If you get him footslogging and you have enough guns to bear at him, he will find his numbers serverly depeleted by the time that he gets to you... and if you can get the charge in you do... Blood Claws lose their punch when they are assaulted...
I wouldn't even consider assault marines in your case as well, they cost too many points and against space wolves are not really worth it. I am also not a fan of the Terminators sure they can get out some nice firepower per model but once the blood claws get into them they mash them to bits... just ask a few of my regular opponents about that.
Also I find that a standard land raider is not worth the points although If you really want a land raider take the crusader, twin linked assault cannon and 2 hurrincane bolters!!! lots and lots of shots with re-rolls!!! rather than a few shots with re-rolls.
Dreadnoughts are nice as well and recently I have seen a friend of mine cause some real headaches by running 2 of them... and blood claws struggle against them, although beware of the power fist weilding one in units. If he normally doens't have any power fists do it.
Anyway just some thoughts
Not enough marines. If you have two squads in razorbacks, they are both 6 marines or less. Your vet plus your HQ are few in number. There is your main problem, mate, and I think the responses you are getting bear this out.
I might try beefing up to 10 man squads, make sure you have a melta or plasma gun and a powerfist in each squad. The melta gun will kill an attack bike with one shot (wounding on a 2).
Get away from the table edge.
I have played Ultramarines for 2 years and although I don't win every game, I definitely win most of my games and I know you can too. Use your points wisely. Rely upon your basics: tactical squads with a power fist and special weapon (no heavy...those are for devastators), speaking of dev squads--get one and give it 8 guys and 4 ML, landspeeder tornadoes can kill anything on the table (get 2), a good and cheap HQ is a chaplain with a pistol (plasma works nicely).
Go forth and make dogmeat outta them!!
Once a Marine, always a Marine.
Use a chaplain with assault squad. This unit is an maneuverable as anything in a wolves army, and will hit harder, generally works best with furious charge on the assault squad. But ultra marines have trouble doing anything right.
Tactically, you should be able to out shoot the wolves. But you wont be able to escape units like bikes and scouts. So several dedicated assault units seems reasonable.
I can't believe your losing to space wolves with a drop pod army.
Have you read the drop pod tactica?
His conventional space wolves army should generally be getting torn to shreds with the extreme flexibility and first strike of drop pods.
You should be dropping 8 or 10 man units, with at least 1 melta gun, and fisted sergeant, you should also field a minimum of 4 of these units, at 1500.
Then your tactics should be simple - kill his most vulnerable fragile and mobile units first, mop the rest of later. So these would include units like, bikes, and rhinos. Which are fragile compared to assault marines or foot sluggers. Bikes won't like being hit with 17 or so bolter shots, while rhinos would be lucky to survive a melta gun hit. If you had a better army, such as trait marines, you should field 2 plasma guns, and blast even smoke launched rhinos.
If you've lost 15 games to this player, then its probably time to revamp both your army list and tactics.
Thanks for the good sound advice you all been sending. ;Y
I think i got to few Space Marines for the job, so thats the first thing ill be changing. Also going with the trait force now with maybe a revamped drop pod force (now read the drop pod tactics, well thought out by the way).
Will be tooling up with Melta's as suggested to try get them pesky bikers off the table, and dropping the Lascannons from my squads.
Drop Poding two terminator squads with two assault each the last couple of games did shake his force up at first but he soon recovered with bringing his leader and priest into the fray. Do you think the points would be better spent somewere else? or keep the hard hiiting force and get used to using them better.
Landspeeder's are mentioned afew times so will try running with another, i must say the one i do have is always worth it.
Again thanks for the help guys. 8Y
(sorry for any spelling/grammer mistakes)
Stick with using 1 squad of terminators. Placement of your HQ is pretty important in a drop pod army. So, unless you also have an assault squad (in which case you'd lead this squad with a chaplain) - id put the HQ in with the terminators.
A cheap HQ is probably best. Librarians are generally the best officer to lead a drop pod army. But, thats not really the case against wolves, since none of the powers are all that good against them. Might be best to stick with a captain in terminator armor, power sword, and storm bolter, or maybe combi-plasma.You must be a fast reader.(now read the drop pod tactics, well thought out by the way).