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I am a keen IG player. I played against various armies (Necrons, Orks, Tyranid, Tau, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines) but I have to admit that my greatest nightmare are Eldar.
I am talking about particlar Eldar army type - depending on minimum 2 Falcons (holofield + skimmer move more than 6" rule + permament possibilty of hiding this tank during the first turn MAKES IT SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DETROY) and some Wave Serpents transporting small squads of higly specialised and deadly dangerous aspect warriors which can easily kill me in close combat (Harlequins), destroy my tanks (fire dragons) or show what shooting is about (dire avengers with blade storm).
I played against Eldar about 30 times, and won 1 or 2.
Are they really unstopable and undetrostroyable ?
To begin with, I would like to make some remarks:
- I usually play friendly matches on a table which is 48 x 48 inches and I use about 8 terrains which are all 8x10" (one big forest, 2 covers you can see through, 2 covers (area terrain), 2 impassible terrains) or on a table 48 x 72 inches with a number of terrain doubled - I inform about it because of desparate looking for what may cause I almost always loose, (probably not) but maybe there's too much of terrain or it influences each battle in other way being in favour of an eldar player?
- we roll d6 to choose standard mission from rulebook and its level (so that i can never presume that i will be able to deep strike my forces)
- in practise it looks like he is always able to move his tanks from one terrain to another remaining not seen or not achievable for such a number of heavy weapons or other stuff which could realistically destroy sth
I believe that TO BE ABLE TO DEFEAT ELDAR AIR CAVALRY I HAVE TO STOP THEM FIRST.
Consequently, I depend on following things in my IG army:
- PLASMA GUN - the best weapon aginst Eldar tanks, having considere its strenght, rapid fire and point cost (except for meltagun which is theoretically better for Falcons, Serpents ignore meltagun's 'anti0tank effects), anyway I take plasma whwerever I can: in command platoon, in command squads, in minimalised hardened veteran squads (5 guys, 3 plasma each - 75 points), from time to time I use special weapon squads with melta and grenadiers, STATISTICALLY, CERTAINTY OF DESTROYING OR INFLICTING SERIOUS DAMAGE (LIKE IMMOBILISED RESULT) TO FALCON REQUIRES A NUMBER OF PLASMAGUNS SHOOTING ON RAPID FIRE MODE WHICH IS ABOUT FALCON'S POINTS COST MULTIPLIED BY 4 OR 5, it is impossible to provide such firepower as a part of your force when you have to face 2 or 3 falcons during the battle
- AUTOCANNON -second the best weapon, it seems to me that there are some problems with it however
1.it has (should in order to remain useful) to be stationary
2.the more I play the more problems I have concerning lack of line of sight (as a result of eldars' incredible movability) leading to not making good use of its range
Again I normally take hq supporting squads, sometimes heavy weapon platoons, infantry squads with autocannons, sentinels
p.s. lascannon is better only in the first turn when it is still possible to make a penetrating hit but falcons are hidden, maybe I should use a few infiltrating lascannons with light infantry doctrine? Usually I do not take this one.
- in reference to THE REST i don't use missile launchers, I ocassionally take Basilisk or two (bearing in mind the first turn and possibility of having the first turn to fire indirectly before moves), I dont use tougher tanks, because of bright lances (which treat armour value higher than 12 like 12) - this seems to me to be to risky business
So finally, maybe the answer for my question is YES, THEY ARE UNDESTROYABLE.
Or maybe I should focus not on TANKS and ignore them as much as possible concentrate on killing eldars who will disembark and stop taking plasmas and autocannons.
Some IG players I spoke with maintain that mechanised armylists are pretty effective due to the fact that bright lances and fire dragons are quite expensive, but it did not convince me.
One guy, who is kind of a competitive player suggested taking conscripts and trying to deploy them in a way eldar will not have any good position to disembark or won't be even able to - I don't know how to do it, and I experienced having 1/3 army tank shocked by shaken falcons. Despite standard, iron discipline some squads ran away.
Sorry for writing such long thread.
I await Your suggestions.
Probably You got some better experience.
Thanx in advance for Your help.
FOR THE EMPEROR !
Are you playing against the same eldar player everytime? if so maybe your opponet has been able to specialise his/her list against your own...
If you dont show your opponet your army list before the game then throw a curveball at him/her... maybe run ALL infantry army so the antitank becomes useless. This will also alow you to focus your entire army fire on just the anti troop guns on your opponets side.
If your opponet is able to move from terrain piece to terrain piece as well as you said then you may have to much terrain (im not very good at judgeing this though)
One of my only people to play against uses eldar and all our games are really close, and i know how you feel
hope that helps a little
"Thank him who puts me loath to this revenge on you who wrong me not for him who wrongd"
Well around here eldar are the main army played so I can give you a few pointers.
1. what ever they put into there falcon will be nasty. However it will be expensive, odds are they will need to kill at least 2 of your units to make up for the points cost. stay spread out and anytime he drops out troops try to cut them down quickly.
2. Hellhounds. Hellhounds work great against the eldar. The flamer can take out entire units with with no save! Bright lances hit like normal so no big deal there. Plus the loss of most eldar units is more points then a single hellhound.
most important advice DO NOT PANIC.
Lol first off NO army and i mean NO army is unbeatable by guard. We have superior numbers, and superior guns (i mean in mass).
I have a competive friend who plays Eldar, and have regularly played against Eldar in tornes in the past 4 years.
Eldar are fragile and expensive and as their darker brothers have to be played very carefully to win.
Cover should be a 1/4 of your table thats it, grab the terrain and measure it that way. Obviously a assaulty or highly mobile elite army are gonna wanna go terrain hoping to hide from you.
1. There shouldn't be enough terrain for this, thats ridiculous amounts
2. You have like a 100 men , take the full length of the table (i do) if you got guns running all 72" of the table weres he gonna hid ?
If he does find a place to hide for a sec use indirect shots, or drop troop squads, heck even a leman at a 6" move should if placed well get to that hiding spot.
Use terrain too, deploy key units behind or in the best cover on your side, 4+ save guard
are awesome !
I mean ye, if your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go too.
Last edited by stifflersthedogs; January 22nd, 2008 at 22:52.
As above, of course it isnt unbeatable, I regularly play against a mech eldar army, it has systematiccaly faile dto beat any of my armies, Admittedly my IG are Elysians so tend to deep strike, with demo charges, a lot of demo charges, which helps, and the vultures also put his tanks to shame on the manouverability front, but I have seen him beaten by other IG armies, what are you after? stuff that works? off the top of my head:
1. dont let him put harleys in serpents - it is illegal (i.e. know his stuff)
2. Mechanise, ~Chimera can pour out 6 str 6 shots, these can hurt any eldar tank,
3. Auto cannon are lethal because you can take out pretty much anything in an eldar army with one, overload
4. dont try and out manouver him, use split deployment and take down his transports, once aspect warriors have to foot slog towards a gun line they are dead meat, using split deployment pretty much assures you of this
5.Stuff that normally you wouldnt consider - do consider - eg mortar platoons - this will eat eldar infantry
Everything you have been told is a lie!
As cher said, split your army and force him to split his. He wrote quite a good tactica on split deployment - have a look at that.
Also, can you give us an average list that you use? What points level? What's your normal strategy? What's he normally run in his lists? (apart from falcons)
Some general tips that can be offered:
1. Lascannons are a bit of a waste against eldar (except when firing at Wraithlords/guard and avatar)
2. Autocannons are your friend, so are Heavy Bolters to a lesser extent.
3. A chimera with Multi laser and HB or Autocannon and HB or even 2 HB's can throw quite a lot of firepower out, and the fact that the highest anti-tanks strength is 8 means it has the same life expectancy as a russ - and will most likely draw less firepower.
4. Sentinels could work
5. If you include HW squads include them in your Command HQ, that you you can deploy them after his heavies.
6. Draw his deployment out and split his army up. Go for a split deployment/victory flank approach.
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain (It's time to roll the dice)- Mattrim Cauthon
My Leman Russes do well. What I do is set the Leman Russ up in cover so all I get are glancing hits at best, and I use the battle cannon fire lanes to deny the eldar avenues of approach. Battle cannons will kill anything the eldar have, and even their skimmers tend to suffer against them. Combined with a 72" range, you opponent will have to stay out of site, or face the wrath of your battle cannon. Deny eldar a means of approach, you deny him maneuverability, thus denying him his greatest advantage.
basilisks would also do wonders here, but it's not as direct or imposing as a russ.
One of my favorite things to do against Eldar is deploy sentinel screens. A couple of walking tin cans works great for keeping your tanks alive. Basically all you have to do is take a unit of 3 sentinels and deploy them the max distance apart (4 inches for vehicle squadrons) This is Roughly a 16 inch wall you have between your juicy stuff and your enemy. At the vary least it buys you and extra turn to move troops into position and will help draw the falcons out. The great part is YOU nominate which sentinel takes damage so all of those can't move and shoot next turns can be lumped onto on sentinel. (correct me if I'm wrong its been ages since i've had a chance to review the rules.
Rheagar fought nobly
Rheagar fought valiantly
Rheagar fought honorably
And Rheagar died.
Rough Riders with hunting lances could be useful.
Fly them up a flank threatening skimmer rears with S5 charges (a long shot but worth it) and killing anything with less then I6 (keep away from harlies, exarchs and autarchs). Also great distractions/baits for units to waste a turn killing cavalry rather then flying toward your lines.
Either get no tanks (that are visable, basalisks are fine) or a shed load (as always).
Get less terrain. 1/4 terrain is supposed to be around what you should use (you are over that) but I see it more as an upper limit. Bellow 1/4 is fine (particulary for Imperial Guard) but over is to much of an advantage to fragile yet hard hitting armies or close combat armies.
Consider Light Infantry and/or Cameleoline. The former is to buy first turn shots at skimmers (remember that skimmers can still be penetrated if they don't move, I have forgotten this myself) and have reactionary deployment of key units. Cameleoline is to protect your vital squads (veterans, heavy weapons etc.).