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There is a player at my local gaming club; he has collected Orks for several years since he started the hobby, he is pretty much the local Ork Warlord.
In the past my Guard have always been able to put up a good fight against the Orks and win on several occasions, but with new rules and ablites such as the ‘Waaagh’. I fear in my upcoming game on thursday that before my guardsmen have reloaded their weapons they would have had a choppa come down on their heads.
“So what tactics should the guard use to deal with this new green tide?”
lol I'm also playing the green tide, on sunday though. Will have to see what happens but i imagine first turn from me will make me a winner IF i hit anything. Anyway tell me what happens i r curious
Pie plates orks worst enemy. The basilisk and 2 leman russ's will work beautifully in my opinion every turn at at least if you hit from a blast taking out 5 - 8 orks depending on how good you roll. And if their in trucks just blow them up. Auto-cannon turrets will work well against the heavier armored orks and the heavy bolters for those little ones.
Personally I wouldn't get too worked up about it. The 'new' special rules just make the orks different from last edition, and a little more fluffy.
Waaagh! is no big deal, it can only be used once in a game. As far as the rest of the list goes I really can't see too many things changing from when people used to play against orks last time around - the same weapons will still carve them up (HB's, autocannons, grenade launchers, flamers etc) and they still have to get in assault at some stage (otherwise you can claim moral high ground because they aren't playing like a true ork).
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain (It's time to roll the dice)- Mattrim Cauthon
I've played Orks twice and won twice now when I expected to lose completely, using a generic army list. Neither game worked out the way I expected it to. 1 Ork list was transport heavy, the other a mix of transports and footsloggers. The following is the things that surprised me, as I didn't expect my list to work at all. I'll try to avoid obvious comments (Hellhounds work well etc).
My list was basically 2 x Demolishers, 1 x Hellhound, 2 X Mech Grenadiers in Chimeras, 2 x AC Sentinels, footslogging Command Squad, 2 x Lascannon AT squads, 1 x Rough Riders (7 men). As it was a generic list, I had no HB's in the infantry.
Lascannons, the AC Sentinels and plasma guns in the Grenadier squads turned out to be a *lot* more useful than I expected, but both armies featured Dreds, Battlewagon, a couple of transports. Depends how much of a green horde / vehicle heavy list he's using. The common advice is for lower strength multi shot weapons, but you really, really do need to stop the transports and Dreds from closing. Kareen is fun, and not the game breaker I expected it to be.
Don't be afraid to charge them : even my Command Squad did well in a desperate late game charge where I didn't expect to do anything. The Ork Initiative and Armour Save stat lets them down when they get charged. Even charging Orks with Sentinels (if they don't have klaws) can buy an extra turn or two.
Infantry in the open will die in a single turn to the sheer volume of Ork shooting. As Kaiser said, it is surprisingly nasty.
The Orks now have good AT firepower from Shokk Attack, Tankbusta's and Deffguns, but not in the quantity needed to deal with all the armour in the above list quickly enough. Almost all my vehicles were destroyed eventually, but they did their job while they lived. The Demolishers rarely got to shoot, but were a fantastic distraction and absorbed a lot of enemy attention. The extra pt of side armour on Demolishers was worth a fortune over regular LR's.
Most players panic when they see the IG gun line, and rush forward. As a result they attack in waves, and you can deal with each wave in turn by rapid firing. I'm tempted to borrow my mates Orks and attack in line to see what happens.
Plan B is not automatically twice as much explosive as plan A
First off, two demolishers are too darn attractive on the list. They are short ranged and they cost a lot, meaning they are very easy targets for mobile orks with some decent anti tank. Also, hellhound and chimeras in my opinion are no longer as good as they used to be due to the addition of new High Str weapons to the ork arsenal. Lastly, you are playing guard with 20 troops as Core? There is obviously something wrong with that.
My main comment for you would be to simply use a troop heavy list, 2 platoons with 3 squads each. One with plasma/heavy bolters, other with plasma/missile launchers. Ork have no truly heavy armor so lascannons might be an overkill.
*I would also strongly suggest taking a single leman russ to act as a fire magnet for his anti tank. A second russ will act good only if you planning to form a solid gun line, otherwise if you intend to stay mobile than you would probably be better off with one.
*Basilisks arent nearly as good vs mechanized armies as they are vs foot slogging so I would completely leave this idea out.
*Sentinels can be hurt by everything in the ork arsenal so your best bet is to have them out of ork range, sniping transports with auto cannons and lascannons. I would try to keep them down to basic cost, and use to scout rule to the full extend to try to take his transports on the first turn.
*Also, rough riders might have their uses but not against orks. The orks are simply too numerous to be delayed by such small units even if they manage to kill a few on a charge. I have to say, for the first time in my life, I actually would suggest you take a squad of seraphims for counter charging as their armor might be enough to hold them alive for a turn or two.
*Lastly, if you are willing to risk it than I would suggest the following. Taking a 5 man vet unit with 2 melta guns and a plasma gun, and infiltrate them in cover as close to the enemy line as possible to take out his most expensive transport which will cause his most expensive unit to footslog across the field. This is risky, but I had it pay off on more than one occasion. Even if he goes first, he will probably have to disembark one of his unit to charge the vets. This will leave the unit on foot for the rest of that turn, and you can take this chance to lay down some fire on them while they are exposed.
Rheagar fought nobly
Rheagar fought valiantly
Rheagar fought honorably
And Rheagar died.
Emm, WraithGuardian did you read the post properly ? I won twice. The list worked really well. You might not like my list, but it works for me as a Mech Grenadier list, and I did state these were the unexpected results of the games. I expected to get massacred quickly, but it was a generic build, not tailored to Orks.
20 Grenadiers = 2 x 10 man Grenadiers = 2 Troop choices, so there's nothing wrong with that - it's a legal choice.
The sheer number of tanks meant they did work well, despite my own misgivings and Theoryhammer suggesting the orks have so much AT that AV12 vehicles would immediately be scrap. The Demolishers did attract a lot of fire, but were resilient enough to take it, leaving the AV12 vehicles to do their job.
Specialist ork units like Burna's and Tankbusta's, and Trukk boys that had just had their vehicles trashed were small enough that RR's do take a decent chunk of them down before they get to your lines or in range. I didn't charge 30 strong mobs of Boys or Ard Boyz, or advise anyone else to do so.
Personally I don't think the infantry horde you suggest would work well as there isn't enough cover to hide from Killcannons, Boomguns, Deffgun, Burnas etc that would have removed squads at a time. The initial assaults I dealt with were biker nobs / stormboy nobz with power claws trying to get through an AV14 vehicle, rather than sweeping through infantry squads like a powersword going through butter. Even the ork forums acknowledge AV14 vehicles are tough for them.
Ultimately it all depends what you're facing, and who the other player is. My list worked very well against my own expectations, Theoryhammer and both Ork armies I faced, but against other lists the result would be different.
Plan B is not automatically twice as much explosive as plan A
I've been reading the new codex here are somethings that I like:
All looted vehicles have a set stat line, so no more being shelled by an opposing basilisk (I always found that frustrating)
Pretty much everything in the ork codex is unreliable(also its all very amusing)
You don't have to worry about everything at once, the new codex has a certain amount of modularity to it that can make for some interesting battles ( some harder than others, but at least there will be some more variety)
good by mob up
Stuff that has me worried- and what i plan to do about it
tank bustas- with the revision of the codex these suckers are deadlier that ever, now elites they can come in large mobs which means more rokkits can be coming after you, oh and did i forget to mention they ALL have rokkits now. Also while potentially harmful to the ork player bomb squigs hit really easy and can really run your day if the smack into the sides of an unsuspecting russ. For armored and mechanized list these suckers rate fairly high on your priority list the great thing is ork leadership being what it is you only need to drop the squad to about half then they should take off running (assuming a full squad) make sure there are less then 11 models before you start forcing moral checks
also elites now they don't get to pick and choose the type of gun they have they all come armed with deff guns, while these things are fairly unreliable 15 lootas have the potential to churn out 45 (effectively) autocannon shots a turn, they have lost the Oops mate rule (I know im sad too) All right mechanized armies beware your chimeras are going to be come smoking ruins really quick unless you whack these guys quickly. nice thing is like tank bustas their mobs can't be particularly large so they are more likely to break and run. These guys scare me, I've seen what shooty ork armies can do and the new lootas i can see being a real knife in my side. I rank them high on my priority list
Hey ever seen one of these before? The once forgotten extra hq choice is now a pretty formidable foe. If one of them gets attached to a squad of shoota boyz and is armed with a shokk attack gun your day could get really nasty. The shokk attack gun has a range comparable to that off a lemman russ and has a random strength. Only nice thing about it is it has a ton of potentially benaficial effects ( for us), conversely if your opponent is blessed by the dice gods and loves rolling 5s and 6s you may find your army disappearing in droves Elite armies beware, its very possible those storm troopers and grenadiers will disappear a squad at a time from this thing, there is a chance that everything covered by the pie plate gets removed ( note it doesn't take a wound... just removed) vehicles take a penetrating hit. What to do? If I played an grenadier army I would be investing in a Vindicator assassin so I can remove this bugger quickly, they ain't very hard to kill if you can pick them off while they are buried in a squad. Depending on your army list these things could be absolutely devastating(keep in mind there thankfully is a chance they will just kill themselves)
The new ork psyker hq... I don't know what to make of these things. They are completely random with their powers (even more so than our psykers) Some of the powers are nasty but since it has such a low leader ship if you kill enough of the orks in the mob around it, its probably going to start failing those pretty quickly. Quite honestly I don't know what to day about these things, myself i think im going to worry about the ork boyz mobs before i turn my attention to these things
These really haven't changed much at all, if they are in mega army ax the transport and leave them stranded then move on to something else.
Right well they all actually get burnas this time around ( i know... schucks right?) Since the burna has such a short range and the mob size isn't very large for them honestly don't start firing at them until they get in rapid fire range.
These can be a pain. They have the ability to infiltrate as before but now they can take an extra special weapon. Basically they have the ability to tie up stuff on your flanks for a few turns giving the other mobz a chance to get stuck in. While annoying it is necessary to kill these guys before they reach your lines there is nothing worse than a stray ork mob-return to sender
Ah and now we reach the nasty parts. Right they got a point reduction. Crap. Well thats all right by me cause they can't mob up anymore....HURRAY FOR EARTH! So now once they start running they stay that way. Bring the rain. Hit them with all those nice shinny pie plates you spent all night cooking. Focus on a mob at a time once one starts running (it will be a while if they are in mobs of 30) swivel and start taking out the other one. Stuff I'm looking into using-Ogryns ripper guns coupled with 3 wounds a modal makes for a nasty surprise. Auto cannons, I know everyone recommends heavy bolters but the auto cannon gives you a greater range ( which you REALLY as well as a high strength meaning you can pot the boyz in trukks right quick. Hellhounds come in after you have knocked out at least 10 ish of the boyz allowing you to cook another 10 and force a moral check for causality purposes 5 or 6 autocannons and a hellhond should be enough to at least cripple a mob
Now fast attack (where they belong) It is now much more likely that a few will die before they even make it to your lines every time they fire up the rokkit packs one may bight the dust; if accompanied by boss zagstrut (who is not an hq) they become a real pain. They then are forced to deep strike, they can't shoot on the turn they do this... but they can charge- be on your toes Nice thing about these they are expensive if they are vultures they cost even more, the mobs are moderately large a single connecting pie plate should be enough to get rid of these pests
The best bikes in the game just got nerfed. They can no longer use their guns on the turn they charge, but their saves have been improved to a 4+ Right these things are bad when they attack in mass, thankfully they cost a lot so it hopefully wont be an overly common sight. They can be taken as a troop choice is the right boss is on the table ( no idea which one)
Ork jet bikes....ugg. expensive but deadly kill these quickly things can get hairy once they if they start dropping their bombs. The ones armed with power klaws must be taken out before they hit your tanks Mech heavy armies kill these before they hit your tanks fast moving power klaws will turn your Russes and baneblades (for large games) to ribbons very quickly. A single demolisher shot should get rid of them ( or at least pin them).
Ork heavy support remains mostly the same big gunz are still annoying, the biggest change is that you don't have to worry about opposing russes or basilisks, leave the las cannons at home and break out the auto cannons and heavy bolters,
Whew... Well this was a brief overview of the newest addition to the 4th edition codex batch. Its not going to be easy. Basic principles that should work against orks, don't try to kill squads to a man, get them pinned with mortars or get them fleeing as soon as a squad is stopped. Always assume (after the first turn) that all orks are 6 inches closer than the actually are (for purposes of staying out of charge range) The WAAAAGH power can be a real curve ball, and a little surprising the first time they all start sprinting towards you ever faster than before. I would make sure to take a squad of Ogryns into battle when facing orks now. As soon as a squad gets charge counter charge back with the Ogryns, it denies them their furious charge and will allow to kick the crap out of most of them before the even get a chance to respond.
Good Luck everybody
Rheagar fought nobly
Rheagar fought valiantly
Rheagar fought honorably
And Rheagar died.