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Which is better to include in my army; a land speeder or an assault squad?
That depends on your army and play style, as well as what you need most.
Assault squad - Fast unit intended for, surprisingly, assault. They work best in large squads. This allows them to last longer and cause more damage. Smaller squads tend to get shot down or rendered ineffective for close combat.
I use a large squad, add a vet. w/ power fist, and a jump chaplain.
Land Speeder - Quick fire support unit. Basically, the weapons loadout determines its role.
My personal favorite is the MM/AC Tornado. Its DA-only though.
For codex marines though, I like the HB/AC Tornado, and the plain multi-melta speeder.
There is no such thing as a plea for innocence in my court. A plea for innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty.
- Inquisitor Lord Fyodor Karamazov
Well, that depends entirely on the composition of the rest of your army, your personal style of play, and what opponents you regularly face. Give us some details to work with.
Speeders are lovely lightweight harassers with quite a punch for their size - keep them moving, sniping at your enemy's flanks or pitching in to help other units finish off wounded targets. With the exception of an anti-tank strike (rending AC or Multi-melta), they're really not meant to take out units on their own. And while they do get the benefits of a fast vehicle, they're really thinly armoured - even an ordinary Bolter salvo is a grave threat.
Assault marines aren't quite so fast and lack the speeder's range, but they can go places and do things that speeders can't - namely going through buildings/terrain and engaging in assault. They're generally much tougher since you have to kill every marine one by one - all a lucky bolter shot will ever accomplish is one fallen marine instead of a wrecked speeder. And with their equipment options and combat prowess, they can pose a far greater threat to almost everything else out there.
So both are great picks, but we'll need to know what else you field to make serious suggestions.
well for my game play since i play mainly against tyranids i sit back and shoot so i like my speeders because i can set them up with AC' and HB and sit there firing and they rarly get into CC so thats a plus against tyranids
3000 points space marines
my thread http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...e-scenery.html
Thanks for all the input so far.
Im still shifting things around so this isnt final but here is what I got currently:
Master-Artificer Armor, Terminator Honors, Storm bolter, Thunder Hammer(still thinking about making changes)
Tactical X 10
Trust your battle brothers, sgt has AArmor, Terminator honors and double lightning claws
1 missile, 1 multi-melta
Tactical X 10
Trust your battle brothers, sgt not set
1 missile, 1 flamer
Tactical X 10
Trust your battle brothers, sgt not set
1 missile, 1 flamer
Scout X 5
Terminator X 5 (planning to add to later)
1 AC, 1 Cyclone ML
Also, any help plus my original question would be great.
Last edited by kenpachi7; February 13th, 2008 at 06:40.
Hmmm... Interesting stuff.
First and foremost, your Tactical squads seem a little bit... Confused seems to be the right word here.
Putting a heavy weapon in the same squad as a heavy combat Sergeant is rather a waste - with the points spent on the sarge, he needs to be in the thick of the fighting as much as possible. Either they move ahead and waste the missile launcher or they sit and shoot, wasting the sarge and pretty much all the other Marines, too. This squad is best replaced by either an Assault squad or a Veteran squad in a Rhino/Razorback with pistols and chainswords - both are built to fight, and they'll really shine with that Sergeant at the helm. Toss in a Meltagun or Plasma Pistols for some heavier firepower and you're all set.
And those flamers? 2/3rds of a Marine's points wasted, period. Flamers are almost never useful outside of a squad charging into combat, and the squad's roles are confused again - stationary heavy weapon plus short ranged assault weapon, one or both is going to get wasted.
Generally, there are three "optimized" ways to build a Marine squad - Shooty, Assault, or Generalized.
Shooty squads are built to sit back and hammer your opponents. They're generally built around their heavy weapons, with enough regular marines to provide backup and soak up damage. Combat gear is a last resort option here, as are flamers and such. Devastators are your ideal unit for this.
Assault squads are built to close fast and fight hard. Keep them lean, mean, and pointy. As I mentioned above, Vets and Assault marines can take CC weapons on the troopers, making them ideal for the job, but a nice big block of basic Bolter Marines led by a well equipped Sergeant is also very capable. Heavy weapons are useless, and pistol/assault type weapons reign supreme because they're fully effective on the move and don't deny you charges. Having a way to move quickly is awesome for these guys, and while a Rhino/Razorback works great (and an assault squad is fast enough on its own), this is one of the few times a Land Raider can be a good option - just as fast as the other transports but several orders of magnitude tougher and meaner, plus you can assault straight out of the ramp.
Generalist squads are the Marine commander's bread and butter, and probably the most canon squads we have. Built with few or no heavy weapons, they rely on special weapons, Bolters, and a lightly or moderately equipped Sergeant to do their damage. They keep moving and pick away at whatever targets you point them at, making the most use of the single greatest weapon we've got - the basic Marine. A good sized squad with a special weapon and sergeant is tough, mobile and mean enough to go toe to toe with just about any other infantry out there.
Of course, these are merely your basic templates - don't just slavishly follow along. Variety is what makes building an army fun, so mix and match all you like - just keep focused squads focused and flexible squads flexible and you'll do fine.
Your commander is a bit out of the ordinary, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Most people shy away from using Powerfists and Thunder Hammers on IC's because they lose their high initiative and can be targeted in combat, so they can be picked out and dragged down while they're waiting to strike. Keep him away from enemy power weapons and especially powerfists, and preferably on the fringes of your units (so they don't steal all the kills before he gets a chance), and he should perform admirably. I would consider giving him some sort of invulnerable save, though.
Your Termies and Dread look fine (nice to see the poor, ignored Cyclone making an appearance), but the scouts need some attention. With only a 4+ save, they're not going to last long under fire even in cover, and Heavy Bolters or equivalent will annihilate them if they're caught in the open. If they're going to be a pistol wielding squad, they'll need more men if they're going to survive long enough to pick a fight. Bolter and Sniper squads can make do with lower numbers, since their usual use is to find some good cover and fire from there. I'd still suggest a few more men for survivability, and consider adding a Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher to suit your likely targets.
As for your original question, both are still fair game, really. I've already mentioned an Assault squad, and a Speeder or two would really be good for some extra mobile firepower. I'd advise you to try a few proxy games with each option to get a feel for which one you like best.
Thanks a ton Wraith. It looks like I have a lot of revising to do. The first troop with the dual claw sgt. has trust your battle brother so that allows the marines to use both a bolter and a close combat weapon. So they function a lot like a vet. squad. If I got rid of the Missile, would that work? For the scouts I was thinking about beefing them up with sniper rifles, and then hanging them off long distance.
i find heavy bolters to be worth it on tactical squads even if that squad might be finding their way to combat in most games, specifically because for only a handful of points you suddenly have a unit that can deal with Nids/Orks/other assaulty armies in a pinch, and you'll never miss those points in games where it's not necessary. But those games where it's crucial, you'll kick yourself that you didn't include it.
Last edited by Gorfang; February 14th, 2008 at 20:13.
Well, you're right about TYBB - with True grit on the squad, it does function much better as an assault unit. Vets and Assaults are still somewhat better since they're specially equipped for the role, but that should be a perfectly useable alternative. Remember to give them Frags! I'd drop the heavy weapon from them entirely, just leave them with the Meltagun and bolters - the rest of the army can provide fire support. Gorfang's just-in-case Heavy bolter idea has merit, too.
great tips everybody, thanks. I'll definitely get that Missile out of there and will look into the heavy bolter. Again thanks all this was all very helpful.
And it looks like the assault squad is more advised than the speeder.