Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Or for that matter a more melee based doctrine guard... Thoughts on Viability?
With warrior weapons you need to be very careful with your choices of troops. Do remember anyone who already has the ability to take CCW and pistol doesnt need to pay the premium. This means command squads, sarges, vets, stormies and advisors are all exempt. Also special and heavy wepaons troopers need not buy it either.
As far as effectiveness goes, light infantry is really your friend. Use as many special wepaons as you can get your hands on and then charge a load of people in in mob style tactics. Use of some rough riders would really help the force out.
The army may find it difficult to face off against specialised CC opponents but that is where the special wepaons come in.
All in all lots of min platoons with maxed out special weapons (remanants squads) and lots of vets withmaxed out special weapons and some rough riders (even give the rough riders carapace) also light infantry.
Hope that helps
I’ve always daydreamed about doing this, I’m just too lazy to put the effort (and mini’s) in. For what you want to do – and I love your idea - I’ll try my best to be as helpful as possible. It quite simply will not work vs ‘nids, and Mechanised elder will be troublesome too.
I'm Assuming two wpn fighting as doctrine Number 1 but can't remember if it costs.
Melee loves numbers. An Infantry platoon will start this show:
Getting them to the fight is the first problem – Mechanized is waay to expensive, drop troops in the scale you want to do is too risky and not really in the “feel” of your fluff.
That leaves running across the board for 2x turns, or infiltrating:
The option you have for infiltrating is with light infantry – Increases the cost per Infantry head from 6 to 7, but as a bonus also makes you run through cover a bit better.
Heavy / Special – Only assault weaponry, so plasmas go out with all Hvy wpn choices.
Flamers compensate for the atrocious BS of guardsmen, and are cheap, but only effective vs infantry.
Meltas kill tanks, but are expensive. You aren’t going to have many other ways of stopping Vehicles though. They also have a much needed AP – those high 2+ or 3+ saves will be a bane to you, so the chance of taking one out, especially as they usually come in small numbers is a boon.
Grenade Launchers just aren’t worth it – They only work against light Vehicles, so for pennies I’d get a melta, and still use a guardsmans BS, with 1x shot.
Powerfists on Junior officers wouldn’t be worth it in my opinion.
If you want to ignore an Armour save get a Pwr Swrd at ¼ of the cost, and non-penalised initiative.
For killing armour when actually in H/H you can’t beat a melta grenade. It's 3 Pnts more than a krak grenade, for a additional +2 str and +1 DICE penetration. Most people would say get more melta guns, but you need the grenades for vehicles with a WS who lock you into combat. For example SM dreadnaughts, IG sentinels etc. A SM Dread would stroll through your army without either.
Also it doesn’t really fit the fluff, as you don’t want to be too intrusive on the body of your creations.
Frags – You’re going to have to. As a bonus you can go through cover more efficiently with Light Infantry.
(As an aside don’t forget Frags can be used as an anti tank melee weapon. – they are STR4 + 1D6 pen, so you can glance AV10 on a 6, you should have plenty of numbers to chase those 6’s and a lot of rear armours are 10 – Even the mighty Leman Russ, Rhino variants and Falcons.
On your standard squads I would actually go for the vetran sgnts. For the basic cost of a guardsman you get +1 LD and +1 attack, which is great for H/Hand. And you can equip them interestingly – a bolt pistol, maybe melta grenades
It’s also a great excuse for individual modeling and adding depth to the force, – maybe giving them rams horns leading a flock of sheep-converted troopers, or prehensive tails etc. It does use the points up quickly.
As they’re getting pretty expensive I would avoid Hardened Vets at this point – you still hit on a 4+ vs WS4, and doctrines will end up being important – 2x used so far. Many, many people are going to disagree with this call, and they can be re-visited later, points and doctrines permitting (I kow it'd be better than a Vet Sgnt w/grenade)
I’d also refer to your platoons as flocks, maybe with Squad 1 translating to Grazing group AAaalllphaaAA
4x Ten man squads with : Light Infantry, Frags, Meltas Guns and Vet Sgnts with Bolt Pistol & Melta Grenades[/
1x Eight Man remnants squad equipped as above with flamer (and krak instead of melta grenades)
Jn Officer w Light Infantry, Frags, Pw Swd, Melta Grenade, 2x Flamers
Your Total = 566 so far
Please note they all deploy as one deployment choice – during infiltration. Haa! Haa! Haa! … or should that be Baa! Baa! Baa! – keeping to that theme of not giving your opponent any targets / hints during deployment can get quite good results.
Basilisks are your friend. Get 2x with indirect fire and you’re still not relinquishing any targets to the opponent, and will have 2x deployments of not giving the game away of just how much you infiltrate. While ideally placed in opposite corners, it may encouraging your opponent to deploy spread out across his board to follow suit – then your infiltrators can concentrate on one part of his army if they do.
For fluff you can see the crews, so it’s not too bad – May I suggest the officer as a giraffe-esque long neck, maybe for seeing over intervening terrain, and a wonderful paint job (and he's not more visible if you were to use him as infantry – it’s just a shame to disadvantage yourself for fluff reasons.) Maybe an elephant-like loader for the heavy shells – with his trunk.
Heavy support total = 250
If you wanted to continue the ruse for 1x more deployment a couple of mortar squads as a heavy weapons platoon could be fun – and their officer has iron discipline as a “backstop” for any routing units. I can’t think of too much to model them though – maybe moles and your large base has a pre-sculpted “emplacement” feel like it’s been dug. You can call them mole mortars. “groans” To GW materials may I suggest old tyranid warrior hands for the paws?
That is however intensive on the doctrines (1 – 2 depending) and not too efficient with points. – we'll come back to this later.
Last edited by stayscrunchyinmilk; February 15th, 2008 at 16:09.
Adeptus Mechanicus Marines: http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post1655065
HQ – If you go for the veterans in the platoon squads I wouldn’t bother with a Leadership Bubble command squad. I would however try to “up” the combat potential, and he’ll have to be infiltrating too, so no advisors.
(Admittedly comissars – maybe wolves – to corral their flock of sheep about would be very fitting in the fluff.)
I’d do – Junior Officer with Honorifica “non” Imperialis, (maybe painting him with a black fleece?) Power Fist, plasma pistol, Carapace armour, Crimson Medallion (I may remember the points wrong on that in the total – check) – And Frags, Light Infantry and a melta gun for the squad.
Ewww… that comes in at 140 points. A bit high for 5x men.
To shave it a bit “Excuse the pun? Why stop now?”
Drop Hon Imp, Carapace Aurmour, Crimson Medallion, the Melta gun and the Plasma Pistol (Replace with Bolt). Get a Senior Officer for the WS and Init increase – with a T3 a HSO probably won’t last that long to make the +1 wound that worthwhile anyway. = 91 points
Ratling snipers = plastic skaven conversions (Have you seen the F/W Tallern lasguns? Perfect.)
Another doctrine down.
6x Number = 66
Stormtroopers – Rhinoesque type minis - for the armour and they're great for equipping your plasmas (BS4 = very good, and a better save if it overheats). They can also infiltrate. They come with Frags & Krak for a jolly if required, however they can be expensive – so keep the squad size low. Because of this and their equipment – hellguns they’re for shooting, not melee. They’ll go through marines like a bull in a china shop. Burn 1x more Doctrine.
8x Infiltrating + 2x Plasmas = 110
Vets – Infiltrate for free, BS4 and can take up to 3 special weapons. A good choice for an anti – tank squad and an opportunity for a different animal type – maybe rabbits? I’d check if they can have shotguns oh, the irony – so you can shoot twice, and move or charge. Trade 1x less S3 Melee attack at 4+ to hit for 1x more S3 Ranged attack at 3+ to hit. Better. No doctrines required for just 1 squad.
Example = Vet Sgnt, 7x Troopers, 3x Melta Guns, Melta Grenade, Frags, = 112
Fast attack = There’s nothing here that can infiltrate or stay out of sight. Rough riders could be entertaining – horse like ones? Maybe on a horse or horse sized on two feet? Centaur like is going too far for the fluff I feel
For the prized Modelling option may I Suggest Shaeffers Last Chancers
You’ll have to look up how much a trooper costs (I can't post), but they infiltrate, come with frag & krak grenades, have 2x attacks on stat line AND come with a shotgun and a BS4. For what we're doing that's perfect.
Shaeffer and Kage (Kaged animal - There has to be a pun in there somewhere) are C/C worthy Independent characters – Kage is more of a nuiscance really though. Last Chancers also pass all LD, morale & pinning tests as long as Shaeffers alive.
If you get 8x Last chancers it’s your second troop choice.
You also need some Hvy weapons – (but in small numbers for fluff reasons) and 2x BS4 Heavy bolters is the same as 3xBS3 Heavy Bolters for average hits, yet cheaper.
P.S. The heavy bolter used by shaeffer is called “Ox”. Really, I don’t think you can change that.
P.P.S. you can split them into 5x sub units who all score (See FAQ).
Unit 1 – Shaeffer (Independent character to add somewhere. As a I/C doesn’t Score)
Unit 2 – Kage (If independent still has his auto LD passing ability, even whilst leading a squad,but won’t score) + specialist + Demo Charge.
P.S. if you give either of these a “chum” they can score – as they are then a unit. If the chum dies, they revert to an IC and don't. If the IC dies the chum still scores. Bizzare, yet relevant for some missions.
Unit 3 – 2x Troopers, 2x Specialists, 2x Hvy Bltrs
Unit 4 – Specialist w. Meltagun
Unit 5 – Specialist w. Meltagun
Example Cost = 262
Totals (2x Bassies, Infantry squad as stated, Cheaper Officer Option, all 3x Elites, Shaeffers Example) = 1,457. for a useable legal army with lots of conversion options.
P.s. Post 2 for writing/pasting convenience.
Last edited by stayscrunchyinmilk; February 15th, 2008 at 16:10.
Adeptus Mechanicus Marines: http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post1655065
Geez luiz stay crunchy, thats a lot of info. What I am researching for is something along the lines of this:
As you can see its a nice combination. I am mostly out looking for viability, probably starting at a kill team but I have to kinda choose between which "counts as" force they will emulate. Pistol and blade seems to me to kinda be what I am looking for, but kroot also stand out with their superior stats to the standard human. Something beastial critters like this would have. I will continue to read over whatever is posted and thank you crunchy, it was an extensive post.
I want to say your schaeffers example gave me some ideas. It's an interesting concept and I plan to look more into it. Rough riders was a automatic in. Something about converted centigors in armor is just awesome to me, especially the perplexed look guaranteed to be on your opponents face when you set them down. They can carry melta weapons as well making them a viable choice for tank killing I believe. Either way, keep up the posting ill decide eventually on what to run through. Currently the other choices up on the table for counts as rules are:
- Witch Hunters (Radical + zealots + ???)
- Tau (Fire warriors + auxiliaries + kroot + ???)
- Imperial guard
- Lost and the Damned (but those rules as far as I can tell are illegal in most areas...)
Last edited by Tauren; February 15th, 2008 at 16:41.
Does anyone know a good way of getting loads of laspistols? I could do this with just 2 CCWs but may as well get some shots in before charging.
Loads of las pistols. Whats the main difference between a las-pistol and a las-rifle per say? range I assume, possibly punching power?
Warrior weapons means you change guardsmen from having a lasgun to a las pistol and CCW or 2 CCWs.
So I need lots of las pistols to do it.
Catachens come with quite a few. There's also lots of las pistol bits and gun holsters you get with other box sets, like the cadian heavy weapons.
The way to do it is to try and have a majority with las ps and CCWs, and they say they all have it. WYSIWYG isn't quite as big a deal when you're talking about 50 IG.