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So, I just started with SM Relictors and there's been awhile since I last played a game. I have always enjoyed playing SM, and thought it would be fun to choose a Chapter a bit more "chaosy" than the normal Chapters (Please note that I do not use the Relictors special rules when I play)
But when I looked in my Codex: Space Marines, I suddenly asked myself: What kind of army should I get? CC or Long-ranged? And what about tanks?
I have been thinking about these questions, and therefore I posted this thread. Usually, I play against Eldar, Orks and Chaos, and I was wondering if you could help me choose a good army against these factions (Please say why you choosed that group, why group X has a HB, etc. I'm not very experienced)
The battles we play are usually 1000pts or less. Thank you for helping me, and must the Emperor always protect you!:happy:
(Wrong forum, please flame me)
Last edited by TheRelictor; May 15th, 2008 at 09:07. Reason: Wrong Forum
Rargh! I eat shoes!
You pose one of the big questions really... the right army to take against which army...
If you read the thread minus_t wrote the other day, you can see that he (and I) believe that most of the time, a balanced army is the way to go with marines, as the different options they have is one of their stengths.
This certainly holds true against Eldar and Chaos (unless you know what your opponent is going to take when you are writing your list), as they both have a variety of shootier or assaultier units to choose from.
For Orks, you probably want to tend more towards the shootier side, as their army tends to be one more reliant on assault troops - however a CC unit with a lot of staying power could still be the most crucial unit in your army if it ties up a lot of the Orks while you shoot the rest of them!
To be honest, I normally play battles that are 1500 to 2000 pts so I tend to be able to take a little of everything,
but just playing about I thought of this list:
with Iron Halo and powers to be varied depending on oppoent.
5 Man Commnd Squad
with Veteran Sergeant w/ Powerfist
2 10 Man Tactical Squads
Heavy Bolter and Plasma Guns (may want to change the HBs to something with higher AP against Chaos though)
2 Land Speeder Tornados
with Assault Cannons
10 Man Devastator Squad
2 Lascannons, 2 Missile Launchers.
The Epistolary and his command squad would act as an assault or counter-assault unit depending on who you are fighting, with a hidden powerfist to help kill anything big. I thought a Librarian because they fit more with the Relictors' "dabbling in chaos" fluff, and because against Eldar a psychic hood is essential kit to try to counter their millions of psykers.
The tactical squads are there to hold objectives and chew up infantry - plasma guns are essential against chaos marines, and the Heavy Bolters will be a blerssing against Eldar or Orks as they will ignore most of their armour. They are 10 man because then they have more staying power and remain scoring units for longer.
The LS Tornados are anti-infantry and can zoom to claim objectives on the last turn if they survive. Either way I find them great for attacking the opponent's flanks. If you are fighting Eldar though I would consider replacing one or both of them with Whirlwinds, as they tend to be highly useful against them.
The 10 man devastator squad is for anti-tank / heavy infantry use. I take lascannons as opposed to the "standard" 4 missile launchers because I find having 4 of the same weapon on the squad boring, plus it does give them some flexibility if there is no armour to shoot at.
I think that clocks in at approximately 1000 pts, obviously you can remove the odd marine from the tactical or dev squads if you needed a few more points, but I wouldn't take them any lower than 7 marines per squad if I was you.
Obviously this is just my opinion - feel free to query as much as you like and I'll do my best to respond!
Thank you very much. Against Eldar, I will use a psyker, but against Orks and Chaos I think I will stick to my Chaplain.
Have you tried playing with a Vindicator? Sounds really fun to blast your enemy to pieces and then let your troops have some fun. Only problem would be to keep it alive. I thought about using a Land Raider with Terminators and have a vindicator behind the LR. Hopefully, the enemy player will use all his big-guns to bring the LR down, and when my vindy is close = Rargh!. Never tried this though, and like I said I'm not very experienced.
Thanks for your help
Rargh! I eat shoes!
You are right a, Vindicator would be a good option against CSMs to replace the Whirlwind, as it is a superb power armour killer.
However if you are playing games of less than 1000pts a Land Raider is a huge points sink - especially with terminators in it as well. If that gets hit with an ordnance weapon (defiler battlecannon for example), it could potentially destroy nearly 500 pts of models with one shot!
To be honest I've not been a great advocate of vehicles lately, as most of mine tend to have terrible luck! But I am trying a bit more to include them as sometimes they can be fantastic. It's often down to the dice on how well they do though.
One thing to note about the pskers is the force weapon - remember that this can instant kill a Daemon prince or Warboss if you get a good hit in with it! But it is your choice of course, a Chaplain leading an assault is always a wonderous thing to behold after all especially if he is using a captured Word Bearer's Cursed Crozius to do it with as could be the case with the Relictors!
That is my problem too, and yes, the LR and Termies would become very expensive. I might give it a try when I play with my friends. Thanks for your help. I think I will try to build my 1000pts force balanced, something like this:
1x Chaplain... 111pts
- bolt pistol, jump pack, teleport homer
10x tactical Marines... 170pts
-ML, plasma gun
10x Tactical Marines /w Rhino...222pts
HB, Meltagun, Smoke launchers, extra Armour
assualt cannon x2
10x Assualt Marines...252pts
10x meltabomb, flamer x2
The only problem I see with this force, is that if the assualt squad + chaplain are killed, I will have a huge problem. Miss tanks and heavy support, but I thought my Assualt squad + chaplain could go tank hunting and termies masacre some troops. Anything you would have changed?
Rargh! I eat shoes!
That's not a bad list, I have used a similar selection of units in a game recently myself (albeit a larger game with a lot more units added) and they are all good units.
The only things I would be concerned about are:
A 'Massacre Result Assault Squad Massacre Result'. Assault troops can often be left in the open if they massacre their opponent to quickly or too slowly, I've had a 10-man squad of Assault Marines with a Master of Sanctity chew through a squad of striking scorpions and their exarch in one turn, then been left unengaged in the Eldar Turn, where 3 War Walkers with Guide cast on their dual Scatter Lasers (24 shots rerolling hits kiddies) walked round the corner and promptly killed them to a man, despite the fact they had a 4+ Cover save at the time. I was not pleased to say the least.
Don't get me wrong, an assault squad with a Chaplain leading is a great unit, however much like the LR it can end up being a point sink in smaller games. You're talking a third of your points in one unit. Even just dropping the chaplain, while it would reduce their effectiveness, would help to reduce the damage losing them might do.
Terminators are a fine choice as you haven't gone overboard on them, but taking them and the assault squad is probably a bit unwise in a game this size, as they both need other units to support them, which you may run short of. Also, bear in mind that if you roll badly on your reserves rolls to deep strike them you could end up with nearly a quarter of your army (points-wise) missing for half of the game.
I would probably try to upgrade the ML in the first tactical squad to a LC because you are a little lacking in ranged anti-armour, and high S weapons can be essential if your opponent has an Avatar or Daemon Prince.
However, my main concern is that your army only has 4 scoring units in it! If you are playing a mission where you have to score to win, you will most likely lose (especially if you spend all game waiting for your Terminators to teleport in). It's always worth including a couple of objective grabbing cheap units like attack bikes or land speeders to help you claim those vital Victory Points! A Whirlwind can also hold an objective near your deployment zone if you are clever when deploying.
All in all it could either turn out very well or very badly, but you don't want your whole game to hinge on the performance of 2 units if it can be avoided!
To be honest though, if this is the army you want, take it. I may preach above, however for a long time I fielded a 5 man Terminator Command Squad with attached Master, Master of Sanctity and Epistolary! They were a ridiculous points sink (over 700 points in total!), and basically my game hinged on how they did. Sometimes my opponents would be left broken and scattered to the four winds, other times they would arrive on Turn 5 and find 75% of the enemy army waiting to blast them to atoms! This is what happens when 60% of your army is one unit I suppose.
So in summary, get more scoring units, or ignore me. It's your army and it's up to you to have fun Hope I didn't sound too negative!
Hehe, I think I will listen to you. Sounds like you have played for a long time, and you explain what I do wrong/right. That's very good:happy:. So far, I have learned a lot about SM from you, because you tell me what's good/bad.
So, what you are trying to tell me is that I should use more cheaper units. for example tacticals with heavy weps? I do like the Land Speeders, but in my opinion they are very fragile, althought they only get glancing hits. I will try the army list you posted, and see if it works well. Which units do you usually use when you play (depending on enemy of course) and do you know any tricks/hints that may help me win?
Rargh! I eat shoes!
Well I try... you picked up on that eh? 15 years in the hobby if I remember correctly... and 4 Editions of 40k to go with it!
To be honest, nothing is good or bad, it's just about playing the odds - some units are more of a risk than others - mainly the expensive ones!
More cheaper units gives you more options - and like I said, more scoring units can make a huge difference in most games. It's also worth remembering that no Space Marine units are that 'cheap' - they are all pretty good!
Correct use of a Land Speeder can be a fine art, but because of their manoeuvrability, you can often get them into a position where they can advance across the table and find a nice spot where they are only in LOS / Range of one or two enemy units, and hopefully still shoot their weapons at them!
Trust me, when you use a Land Speeder to claim / contest a loot counter or table quarter in the last turn and win the game because of it, you'll know what I mean!
My army varies hugely from game to game to be honest, but I always take 2 Tactical Squads (at least 7 men in each), and I prettymuch always take at least 2 LS Tornadoes with HBs and ACs.
I almost always take a Devastator Squad with 2 LCs and 2 MLs - these are for killing vehicles and big things (Avatar, Daemon Prince, Carnifex etc). Anti-Infantry can be handled by my Tactical Squads as far as I'm concered.
I nearly always take a Dreadnought with AC, though recently I have upgraded the storm bolter to a heavy flamer and started putting him in a Drop-Pod, which I find is working wonderfully
Apart from that it tends to vary depending on the enemy I face - I always take a Psyker against Eldar, as I've mentioned, and usually a Whirlwind as well because it beats most of their armour.
I often take Terminators as I just love how my opponent worries about them! I vary on how they are delivered though - sometimes in a Land Raider, sometimes in a Drop Pod, sometimes Teleporting in. I have been using a 2 Assault Cannon squad mostly, but I have recently bought 2 Assault Squads, one has Lightning Claws, the other Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields, so I want to try using them soon!
Basically I tend to change my army every game if possible - it makes the game more fun in my experience!
The tricks and tips tend to vary depending on who you are facing and what units you have, to be honest, there aren't too many 'general' ones, but if you look at the various Tactica that people have written on LO you won't go far wrong!