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Infantry Platoon Vox-casters, waste of points?

2K views 33 replies 18 participants last post by  Misanthrope 
#1 ·
Ah my first post, hello everyone!

Was wondering what everyones opinion is on vox-casters in infantry squads?
Also, Priest's, Yay or Nay?
Discuss.
 
#2 ·
Vox Casters? I like them, mainly because I despise Close Order Drill (unless used with Mordians or Praetorians) and prefer my army to be flexible.

Okay, I hear people shouting "flexible? Guard? are you taking the piss?" but I meant in deployment. I dont like having to keep at least part of the squad within 12" of my commander (or one of two LD 9 officers if doing the twin LD bubbles thing)

Most of the time I play drop-troops anyway, where it is absolutely essential, but even when gunlining or whatnot I like the vox.

Priests? Never used them
 
#11 ·
Guard are highly flexible! At the moment, probably one of the most flexible armies out there. Just because everyone seems to think "guard army...must make gun line...no, must take lots of tanks...no, tank-gun line) doesn't mean that there aren't a multitude of other effective ways to field your meatshields.

Thanks, I was thinking of taking priests in my HQ and platoon command's with eviscerators (extra assault), and I was thinking of having a DH/Inquisition element in my army so it works fluff wise too! The main downside being a whole doctrine being spent on 2/3 models!!
As for vox-casters, I didn't want to make and paint all my squads and then realise there pointless!
Thanks again, I'm gonna have another think!
Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of vox casters. I feel that they just cost way too much, once you've put them in every squad. Thats a lot of plasmaguns.

As for the priests - I say go for it! You're looking for a DH/Inquisition feel? Then take the priests!! If you wanted to go witchhunters feel, you could also take maybe some arco flagellents and then you'd really have some good counter assault.

I run a priest with an eviscerator sometimes in my skitarii, I like having a counter assault unit on hand. It does fairly well - killing marines on 2's is always a winner in my book. And the re-rolls CAN actually do alright sometimes. Plus, he's good for anti armour in a pinch - my dude has torn apart several dreadnoughts. The look on your opponents face when you assault his dreadnought with your command squad and then destroy it is priceless.
 
#3 ·
Vox is good if you're looking to be mobile (mechanized, drop troops), but if you're using a gunline, you're probably better off using the bubbles.

Priests are pretty much a fluff only type unit in my opinion. It'd be kind of cool if you could make a rough rider priest, but even still... points could be better spent elsehwere.
 
#4 ·
Never used priests, but they seem like a waste of points to me, I mean "Righteous Fury"?! you want my to pay for that?! They could be fun for purely fluff puposes if you wanted a feral close combat army with the "warrior weapons" and "hardened fighters" doctrines...

Vox-casters on the other hand... I have one in every squad that can take one and a master vox in my HQ. They give great flexibility; note you don't have to use the commander's leadership if you don't want to, and I prefer to be able to rely on my troops to do what I want them to (i.e. stay where I put them, or break when they should). Add to that I just got a long range ground scanner from Forge World, and vox-casters become the greatest thing since the Emperor invented kittens! (wait, that doesn't sound right...:?)
 
#7 ·
Thanks, I was thinking of taking priests in my HQ and platoon command's with eviscerators (extra assault), and I was thinking of having a DH/Inquisition element in my army so it works fluff wise too! The main downside being a whole doctrine being spent on 2/3 models!!
As for vox-casters, I didn't want to make and paint all my squads and then realise there pointless!
Thanks again, I'm gonna have another think!
 
#10 ·
Vox casters
Big negatives is that leadership bonus from commissars doesn't translate down the vox. Also, if you are using the Iron Discipline doctrine that doesn't translate down the vox either. The ability to use the vox ends when you lose the guardsman carrying it. That's usually the turn that that squad needs the vox most and you are forced to decide on losing the special weapon the heavy weapon or the vox.

Big bonus is that your strongest leadership value can easily be translated to all your squads as you need it.

I haven't had a game where the vox network has made up its points, but I have had several games where Iron Discipline makes back far more then I spent on it.

Priests
They would be great if you could decide which squad they joined and if they where a bit cheaper.

:?
 
#13 ·
Vox casters
<snip> The ability to use the vox ends when you lose the guardsman carrying it. That's usually the turn that that squad needs the vox most and you are forced to decide on losing the special weapon the heavy weapon or the vox.
<snip>
:?
This will probably become a huge liability in v5 if the leaked pdf is correct and wounds are assigned to models before rolling for saves.
 
#12 ·
Vox- Casters are good to have if you expect to be out of range of your command squad or platoon commands leadership ability. Its really good for drop troops or mechanised.

Priests I have never used but I sort of had a desire to use. I believe they would be good with a squad that has harden fighters or if you do what Cadaver Junkie here says which is really good advice.
 
#14 ·
Vox Casters are NOT worth it unless you have more than 20 squads.

if you put vox casters in every squad, and get a master vox in the command squad, you can give every squad a veteran sergent with a boltgun, matched with close order drill, to give you the same leardership, in addition you will probably still have enough points to add in iorn disipline to the command squad(just wish it was enough points for stormbolters......)
 
#15 ·
Vox are good, although mathematicly Close order drill+vet sarg is better. Remember that is only if you can get your troops into close order drill. Some terrain may restrict this ability and flamer templates love Close order dril (ive had all 10 men in a squad taken out from the flamers in a single squad)

Priests give you extra attacks when you charge. GREAT now i have 10 str 3 attacks and my opponent's squads are at full health because i couldint fire my heavy weapons.......:X
 
#16 ·
yeah priests would be heaps cool if you could choose where to put them... and they didn't cost so much... and didn't have the righteous fury rule... and were actually good, as opposed to the crap that they currently are. Personally I despise them (in case you hadn't noticed) and if your trying to get your HQ unit into CC, your going to be a little dissapointed when you fight... well anything really. I prefer to keep my IG HQ out of harms way.
 
#19 ·
Priest are really only good for a fluffy army, or one that relys on CC. I mean really relys on close comba, not just close range support like meltaguns.

However, I thnk everyone would take priests if they were as usefull as they are in Dawn of War. They can join any squad and have a special ablilty which makes them and their sqaud invunrable to dammage for a few seconds. I just hope they don't get this n the actual game.
 
#20 · (Edited)
The Ld. bonus from a commissar does translate down a vox. I've got the codex open on my lap and it says that Ld. bonuses from standards, and TM's don't translate down a vox. There is no mention of commissar or ID bonuses not translating.
You'll need to have a look at the FAQ and the Summary Execution rules, it's clarified there, not under the Vox caster rules.

And the FAQ specifically says that Iron Discipline does NOT go down the vox. Not sure why not though.
If you actually reread that section, you'll see that it's not singling out Iron Discipline other than as an example.

The wording is "Special rules such as Iron Discipline...".

Iron Discipline is not the point of this ruling, Iron Discipline is the example of this ruling. What is this rule?

Special rules (and wargear as later stated) do not work in conjunction with a vox caster.

The vox caster entry is worded a bit ambiguously here, it does not refer to the leadership special rule but simply says the squad on the other end of the vox-link can use the officers LD. Personally, I would say that means commissar bonus does apply but its open to interpretation.
This is also incorrect. It says that it allows the unit to use the Leadership characteristic of the Officer. The rules clearly and explicitly state that this characteristic is only ever modified by the Commissar for the use of his own unit or for tests taken via the Leadership special rule. Just personally, I don't see someone could feel this is open to interpretation beyond the urge to wring every advantage out of the commissar that they can.

The RAW is quite black and white.

Oh, a slight update, the FAQ talks about commissars operating independantly and it says that a commissar attatched to a squad simply "adds 1 to the commander's Leadership".
Ugh, now that is a disgustingly poorly written section of the FAQ. For starter's it's never clarified anywhere what a "commander" is. And if you wanted to be strictly RAW, such an example would only apply if you had an actual Independent Commissar attached to the unit, but even then I'd refer you to the point about special rules in general not working in conjunction with a vox caster.
 
#23 ·
If you actually reread that section, you'll see that it's not singling out Iron Discipline other than as an example.

The wording is "Special rules such as Iron Discipline...".
As such, Iron Discipline does not work down the vox, and it specifically mentions Iron Discipline. I dont see how you can have a go at me for saying something that mentions Iron Discipline actually mentions Iron Discipline.


Triumph Of Man said:
This is also incorrect. It says that it allows the unit to use the Leadership characteristic of the Officer. The rules clearly and explicitly state that this characteristic is only ever modified by the Commissar for the use of his own unit or for tests taken via the Leadership special rule. Just personally, I don't see someone could feel this is open to interpretation beyond the urge to wring every advantage out of the commissar that they can.
Well, I think anyone who has ever played against me will say that trying to wring advantages out of the rules is not something I do. And for the record, I have never actually played it that way, that was the impression I got reading the codex and FAQ in an attempt to answer the question from something other than memory.


Triumph Of Man said:
The RAW is quite black and white.


Ugh, now that is a disgustingly poorly written section of the FAQ. For starter's it's never clarified anywhere what a "commander" is. And if you wanted to be strictly RAW, such an example would only apply if you had an actual Independent Commissar attached to the unit, but even then I'd refer you to the point about special rules in general not working in conjunction with a vox caster.
Not entirely sure these two comments go together all that well.


Although since I play by what the codex says anyway (mainly because no-one can ever be arsed digging out the FAQ, even though it usually only needs an alt+tab) I only use it for tests directly affecting the command squad.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I think this is proof-positive that the rules are slightly ambiguous.

Try not to be quite so forceful triumph - it's not really necessary and it's certainly not terribly pleasant. I'm afraid these rules are open for interpretation as you have clearly interpreted them in a different way to beirdyweirdy and myself. I would also like to point this out - "Since your commander's 'Leadership' special rule is also enhanced by the presence of a Commissar, the bonuses can potentially apply to your entire army!" From – Imperial Guard Commissars Tacita – GW US. Apparently the people who wrote the rules also seem to think that the bonus works with a master-vox.

Incidentally, I find it slightly offencive that you would accuse us of "wringing every advantage out of the commissar that we can" over a simple disagreement over the rules for commissars. If you play with the Guard for long enough, you will realise that the +1 ld you get from a commissar is not all that useful. If you're in a situation where you're rolling Ld. checks with any kind of regularity I find that I should have planned better before the game even started.

This is off-topic, so PM me if you're really that desperate to respond and continue this silly disagreement.

Otherwise - Vox - yes!
Priests - NO!!!:)
 
#22 · (Edited)
Try not to be quite so forceful triumph - it's not really necessary and it's certainly not terribly pleasant. I'm afraid these rules are open for interpretation as you have clearly interpreted them in a different way to beirdyweirdy and myself. I would also like to point this out - "Since your commander's 'Leadership' special rule is also enhanced by the presence of a Commissar, the bonuses can potentially apply to your entire army!" From – Imperial Guard Commissars Tacita – GW US. Apparently the people who wrote the rules also seem to think that the bonus works with a master-vox.
GW is not always correct upon their own rules. Numbers of mistakes are apparent in battle reports played even by senior developers, Jervis Johnson deciding to ignore the effects of entanglement for no apparently good reason for example. And then there was that crap storm over the comment of how the Scorpion chainswords made the Exarch with a Claw S7, totally ignoring the rules stating no combination of Special CC weapon effects (because otherwise us IG players would be possibly investing in S6 PFists that strike at Init 5 on Platoon HQs).

That being said, it doesn't sound like they're talking about the bonus working with the Vox at all specifically. They could well talking about your Commander overseeing a refused flank formation, or multiple command squads with Commissars. :?

Even so, I would like to see this article you quote from. It obviously hasn't made its way to Oz.

Incidentally, I find it slightly offencive that you would accuse us of "wringing every advantage out of the commissar that we can" over a simple disagreement over the rules for commissars.
That wasn't leveled at you directly, I'm sorry I should have been a bit more precise there. I was speaking from experience, the only person that I've seen attempt to argue the rules that way in real life was one of those types of players who would argue and cheat their way through games as much as they could possibly achieve. Not accusing you of being such a person, but just from experience it's something I've seen them do.

If you play with the Guard for long enough, you will realise that the +1 ld you get from a commissar is not all that useful. If you're in a situation where you're rolling Ld. checks with any kind of regularity I find that I should have planned better before the game even started.
I disagree. Try playing against Librarians packing FotD, or FoA. You'll be taking a lot of LD tests a turn. Not to mention a trio of God Falcons running 36" Tank shock runs up and down your deployment zone, I've had that cause around 20 tests in one turn, absolutely insane.

Then you come across the myriad of weapons in the game that cause pinning, regular shooting casulty tests (losing 3 Guardsmen from several 10 man squads is not that irregular, and the smaller they get, the more frequent the tests become), and losing assault LD checks. Then you've also got to consider all the target priority tests you'll be taking all game. IMO it happens a lot.

This is off-topic, so PM me if you're really that desperate to respond and continue this silly disagreement.
If you can link me to the Commissars tactica you mention, we can pick it up from there.
 
#24 ·
As such, Iron Discipline does not work down the vox, and it specifically mentions Iron Discipline. I dont see how you can have a go at me for saying something that mentions Iron Discipline actually mentions Iron Discipline.
I'm not having a go at you, you said you were confused as to why they're specifically picking on Iron Discipline in the FAQ. I'm trying to explain that they're not specifically picking on Iron D, it's just an example for the rule that says Special Rules (and wargear) don't work via a vox (The point being that Summary Execution and the subsequent LD benefits are just that, a special rule).

Not entirely sure these two comments go together all that well.
The RAW is there, I'm just disgusted at the blatantly obvious loose end with the "commanders" issue. You'd think they'd clarify somewhere just what a "commander" is (i.e. if Sarge is dead, can guardsman Jenkins fill in the LD role and have a LD boost from the Commissar? Does he now count as the unit "commander"?)
 
#25 ·
I will agree it isnt the most clearly worded of documents...the neccessity for which could have been avoided by a bit more playtesting and reading of the codex before it went to print.

And the clarity of which could have been ensured by a reading of the FAQ before it went to...the internet equivalent of print.


Given that he will shoot guardsman Jenkins if a LD test is failed I would guess said guardsman would get a LD boost. But of course in the commissar codex entry it says the unit will fight on under the leadership of the commissar...

At times like this I am GLAD I dont use the FAQ, we need an FAQ for the FAQ.


Oh, and I was getting at I am not sure why certain special rules and abilities cant go down the vox, not that I wasnt sure why ID specifically didnt. If you think about it fluff-wise ID (and a few others) should really. An officer trained almost from birth to be an officer in a regiment that has voxes would surely have been trained in getting the most out of the vox in question. There again, logic isnt the Imperiums strong point.
 
#30 ·
Gentlemen, I feel i should redirect all bothered to the 40k rules forum discussion on this, to be taken up there.
My views on this are there.

On voxe's: Get a Veteran sgnt. It's the same price range, and you get interesting stuff like a extra attack (Well i said interesting, not usefull) and can give him stuff like a boltgun (I see everyone jumping up and down exitedly at this point)
P.S. Close order drill only works in melee unless i'm very mistaken. Leadership bubbles do not work in melee at all (Or at least if the HQ's in melee. I must re-read when i get home)
P.P.S that's why i have Junior officers with iron discipline and a mortar as "backstops" in my army. Getting a master vox, and vox casters for a full platoon is very nearly another squad. You're not supposed to care about them, they're guard!

On Priests: I beleive they're the most useless, terrible object in the codex. Seriously, i'd rather buy camo netting and make all my men surveyors before using them.
The advisors rule makes them truly horrific (BTW, Avoid melee with your HQ squads)
And constantly moving means not only do the heavy weapons not fire, but you are limited to rapid fire range with the lasguns.
Since when in the living peanuts was it a good idea to trade your 2x puny S3 lasgun shots for, on the charge, 2x S3 hits after your opponent trys to hit you? (Look at init. Wince.) after that it goes further downhill.

As an aside i'm guilty of both at one time or another - just last thursday i threw approx 40 Infantry at a heavy flamer armed terminator squad in melee. In case you're interested i lost the melee (reduced to 1x man! my lietenant managed to roll 3 or less on all 13 attacks before being cruelly slashed to pieces). the other sdin is i used surveyors for a laugh about 2 months ago on my vet stormtrooper sgnt (i had spare points and he had one in his hand) and promptly blew away a ravenor when it arrived. Trust me, no-one was more surprised than me.
 
#32 ·
Since when in the living peanuts was it a good idea to trade your 2x puny S3 lasgun shots for, on the charge, 2x S3 hits after your opponent trys to hit you? (Look at init. Wince.) after that it goes further downhill.
Actually there are a lot of times when charging is often a better option. One game came to mind - I was versing my mates Sisters and a squad moved into position to open up with a heavy flamer and a bunch of bolters. The game was in the balance and I had 2 options - move and shoot twice, or move and charge. I charged. Why? I hear you cry, because of this:
In CC guard have a better chance of surviving - especially against sisters. Instead of the sisters wounding a stack of models on a 2+ (HF) or 3+ (Bolters) and denying a save (quite capable of wiping out the entire unit) they are now hitting on a 4+, wounding on a 4+ and I get my saves.
This move won me the game and it certainly surprises people when guard charge in.
 
#31 ·
to hell with this constant topic.....

the commisar boost and the iron disipline boost dont go through the vox, only the officers leadership does

read the faq or else ill have the inquisition knock down your door!!!!!
 
#33 ·
I think it can be very advantageous to charge rather than be charged under the right circumstances. If you've got a Guard unit out in the open, or even in cover, it's sometimes tactically sound to have them launch out into an assault rather than stand there and fire flashlights. For instance, as I said, if you've got a Guard squad out in the open, charging atleast gives you extra attacks, and Guardsmen are much more survivable in CC than they are being shot at (in the open). Secondly, if you've got several large groups of Guard units very close to one another it can often be better to send one squad as bait/roadblock to get to an enemy CC unit away from the rest of your units, tie it up in CC for a turn or two, and afford you the chance to do much more damage to it than if you had let it alone and let it charge you next turn, and then massacre into each of your squads one by one.
 
#34 ·
In any case as for the original topic, I'm not convinced of Vox's usefullness or lack thereof quite yet. Yes, foregoing voxes can save you some/a lot of points, however, without it you're very likely to have units scattering and fleeing around the map unless you can keep an officer nearby. Case in point, I had a Guard squad flee for 3 turns straight, right off the board, after suffering only three casualties, because of that blasted Ld7.

If anything, I think vox casters may be necessary, but probably not the master vox... maybe just stick a vox in two or more HQ squads, that way you can have several guard units using different HQ squads. And not having to pay 20+ points for a master vox will help.
 
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