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well i'm looking for advice on creating a DH army with mainly grey knights, certainly a dred or two, and perhaps some storm troopers and getting atleast 1,000points to start with for the release of 5th ed...since the rule changes some what plan to nerf my plague marine strong nurgle army and my genestealer strong 'nid swarm. lets see what the Ordo Malleus has to offer .
Having played a handful of games using the 5e rules set, I don't think either of your existing forces are nerfed at all! Everyone will have to adjust their tactics somewhat -- everyone -- but both of those armies have very strong Troops choices (very important, of course!) and excellent selections in the other Force Org slots to keep the pressure on the opponents constant and off the Troops.
That aside, the Grey Knights are not a force that is all that much affected by the rules change. The reason is because they're not a min-maxing kind of force. There are no power combos, power builds, or intra-unit synergies. The strength of the army, such as it is, comes entirely from the fact that Grey Knights are 40K's best All-Rounders.
They're not particularly fast (no dedicated transport options, speed entirely dependent upon one's ability to absorb the cost of heavy support land raiders in the army list, though now you can Run, if you so desire) but they are mobile, constantly projecting a 24" threat bubble.
They're not particularly shooty, but you need just a couple of squads of GKs to generate an insane amount of anti-infantry dakka. The army has always had a shortage of long-range heavy firepower, however, and 5e won't change that in the least. You will always have to find points for at least a pair of TLLC/ML dreads or a pair of land raiders in every list if you intend to have a chance against enemy armour.
They're also a very poor assault army, having too few models and only MEQ initiative, but they're no pushovers either, easily amongst the game's elite in close combat. Still, close combat specialists (e.g., harlequins, genestealers, death company, khorne berserkers) easily eat GKs for lunch.
All this adds up to a force that perfectly balanced in a way that no other army is. The problem with this is that 40K is a game that rewards specialization. It's easy to know how you are supposed to deploy, maneuver, and utilize Tau Fire Warriors, Tyranid Hormagaunts, Eldar Striking Scorpions, Ork Boyz, etc. Nearly all 40K units have clear advantages and disadvantages, so a "balanced" list is one where you pull in a good mix of specialists. Or you could, of course, build an extremely focused army out of a limited selection of specialists.
But neither option is possible with Grey Knights because the units are inherently balanced. Not only are they not specialized, there is no way to specialize them! There are no wargear or weaponry upgrades available that change what they are.
The upside of this Ultimate Balance is that Grey Knights will always posses an advantage over every foe. In general, they excel at anti-infantry -- either at range or in assault, or sometimes even both! -- and struggle against heavily mechanized lists, but outside of that general tendency, there is no foe that a GK force is going to dominate nor get picked apart by easily. You will always have a chance to push the game in the GKs direction, forcing the opponent to play against their strengths.
The challenge, therefore, is to identify where your GKs have leverage, and to guide the game such that you can utilize those advantages.
You should know up front that this is not necessarily an easy thing to master. GKs don't play remotely similar to any other 40K army. It's a reactive force that does much better being played from turn to turn rather than with an ultimate, overarching tactical approach. And the model count is so low that if you make a mistake, the army crumbles in a hurry. You have to play with finesse and care, showing your strength only when the time is ripe, and not a moment too soon.
This is much longer than I intended, but hopefully you'll find it helpful ... and hopefully you'll join us!
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
If you are going to change armies because your old armies are Nerfed I would certainly not start playing DH. If we get a new codex I could see them making a strong comeback, but as they stand now against the new recently released armies they don't even need new rules to play poorly. Number six makes the point that everything we have is balanced so we can do everything, but not well enough to be good at it; that really hurts your army when you have to take down an AV13 vehicle, or a few squads of genestealers hits your line because we die like normal marines and cost 66% more. And the most insulting part is that there is a unit that is better than GKs in everyway--Plague marines cost less, put out a better wound/causualty while shooting even without special weapons (against GK) because of feel no pain, and dominate (about 4 times the casualties per turn) durring the assault phase because of feel no pain, and increased toughness. If you think your plaguemarines are getting nerfed I would certainly wait to start DH until they either get better, or cost much much less.
well it's not probably going to be as bad as i'm thinking it will be. tyranids can always be re-configureed with all their upgrades and mutations, my plague marines still have 'feel no pain' and my list doesn't really hav to change at all. i did have a friend who played his DH really well. against my 'nids he'd just unload shots into my genestealers who couldn't find cover and incenarate them when they were, even though i took plenty with me in assault, got his dred into assault with my guants so they became useless, and LR fire power beat my fex's. against my nurgle he'd rush up in the LR, deepstrike termies and dreads, tho they were exposed the turn they dropped, it's either finish the grey knights getting ready to charge or waste everyhting on the termies. with the str6 increase my toughness wasn't much help and the power weapons eat through me, though again i took most of them out through combination of shooting and the assaults. vs my nurgle he tied alot and won alot vs my 'nids...though he had trouble against tank or skimmer strong armies like tau or IG.
i've seen and played good DH and seen them fall apart. i'm not sure if i crave a balanced force, but i do like my sqauds being able to do more than one thing...(the tau getting rid of everything that shoots and leaving the genestealers there to chase skimmers).
ill just have to borrow a codex or get one and proxy some lists and see what i think after i use some 5 ed rules in game play. thank you both for your words of wisdom and ill take use f them when developing a DH list.