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Firstly, I'd just like to say although this is my first post here, i have actually been milling around LO for months, and only recently decided to register as some questions have cropped up that I havenít found yet.
My first (and possibly hardest) question is about Veteran squads.
As a bit of background, Iíve played around 7 games so far, each around 1500points and all against SM/CSM. Before i started playing, I got a little excited by the metal veteran squads that you can get from GW. So excited in fact, that I bought both sets (10 men total). The two sets contain the following men (for those that have not checked them out!)
vet with Lightning Claws (pair)
vet with Power Fist & Bolt Pistol
vet with Power Axe & Bolt Pistol
vet with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol (in MkVI armor)
vet with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol
vet with Lightning Claw and Bolt Pistol
vet with Power Sword and Plasma Pistol
vet with Power Fist & Bolt Pistol
vet with Power Axe and Plasma Pistol
vet with Bolter (thatís right, all that CC power from 9 men, and one guy with a bolter!)
Scanning the rules, it appears that, in order to allow anyone other than the sergeant to take weapons from the armory, the sergent must take termie honors which allows the other marines to take termie honors too (+15points for serg, +10 for every other marine), meaning the cost for most of those power weapons technically doubled!
I quickly totaled up the cost last night, and it came out at around 445points for all 10 to be fielded in the same game as one squad - is this right?
How on earth would I justify spending 445points on 10 men? I could field 20 or 30 standard marines for the same points cost, and thatís before we add the cost of a rhino to get those vets to the front line where they do their best!
Your opinions on what I could do with these models would be much appreciated, as fielding them all in anything less than a 3000point army seems stupid (unless my math is wrong), and the physical cost of those men and beauty of the models seems a waste if i leave them in the box all the time!
Last edited by CleanRabbit; June 23rd, 2008 at 10:52. Reason: typo in title
Two quick points for you....
1. wait until the new rules and codex come out in the next few months as Ving some serious and excellent rules changes and improvements. They will actually become worth having!
2. Read your codex carefully. It says the Serg can take term hons and then gains access to the armory. If the serg has term hons then the rest of the squad can do to. Notice it doesn't say they have access to the armoury!
I have read a lot about what is expected to change in the new rules and codex, so i was expecting my army (and how I use it) to change when I get into the new rules and codex.
As for the current take on vet's in the codex, you are right, it doesn’t say they have access to the armory. On that note then, how does GW justify bundling the above mentioned vet's in the same box as a true "Veteran Squad" and illustrating them as such? Is there something I missed?
Cheers for the help though! =)
I'm not sure quite what GW wanted to achive with so many models but this is the closest you can get in a 10 man squad according to the dex.
1x Vet Serg w whatever weapons you want.
1x marine with either lig claws or power fist
1x marine power weapon & bolt pistol
7x marines bolt pistol and ccw
all with THons =uber points and lots of attacks.
I have a squad like this and only ever use it in the biggest of games. 5000pts plus. Terminators always get used first. However these little guys drop podding in along with a pile of other troops worry your oponent lots! ;-)
The models you have can also be used as Vet Sergs in your other squads. That would add real flavour to the overall cool look of your army.
Hope that helps.
I tend to see the veterans box as a collection of veteran sergeants wanting to be added to units (though the lightning claw + bolt pistol guy i'd probably change to carry a bolter).
Though i agree it is a slightly wierd box set.
Cheers for the tips guys. I never thought of using them as vet sergeants to be honest! I'm a lot more comfortuble putting my plastic sergeants back in the box in favour of any of the metal veterans, and your right, it would look much better than my current vet sergeants!
I had been considering using one or two in my command squad, but i need to double check the codex to make sure i can and what the point costs would be.
I guess for the time being, finding alternative ways to field these cool mini's without burning hundreds of points is the best way to get the most from my money. That is until the next codex hits the shelves, then i guess i'lll be re-writing my army list again anyway!
Thanks again guys.
I've posted the same question before myself as well... the first box were fieldable, but the "Veterans MkII" aren't at all legal as far as I can tell.
In the next edition of C: SM they may be useable as command squads, or even as Vanguard Vets without jump packs (though why you would want to do that is anyone's guess), but if not, they will probably just remain as Veteran Sergeant fillers. If GW had marketed them as "Space Marine Veteran Sergeants" then they could have saved us a lot of trouble (well, pondering anyway)!
As others have said, wait until the new codex comes out this fall before making any drastic decisions.
As to what to do with them, I feel your pain. When I first started out, I insisted on buying the box set just because they looked uber-kewl.
Unlike you, however, I was stupid enough to try to tool them up with wargear (it is possible, though I forget how) such that they matched the five models I had. I then foolishly added as much MORE stuff to them (on paper. Models weren't touched, natch) as possible, and wound up with something like a 300-point five-man squad(!) which I quickly learned was a very, very bad idea. I also learned very painfully that the box art GW makes is designed to market their product, NOT serve as a guide to building an effective combat unit (*cough* tac squad *cough*).
If you don't want to wait, try the following:
1) As has been suggested, break up the squad and use the models as vet. sgts. in your other squads. Not a bad idea, if you can come up with a reason to field, say, a lightning-claw-equipped sarge. More likely, you won't find a use for all of the models, but the guy with the powerfist will definitely come in handy.
2) Break up the models. Use the lightning claws on, say, a commander model you are building or something. Not ideal, since you're bound to have models/parts left over that will sit in your bits box with no purpose or plan for years, but you'll have some unique stuff in your army.
3) Keep some (though you may be hard-pressed to use all ten) for a vet squad, but mix them with plastics. Buy a SM combat squad, which will give you five "basic" bolter-toting marines. The problem with the GW metal vets is that many of them carry expensive wargear, which is why filling an entire squad with them is not recommended. Best to bring the five plastic guys in as "veterans" (a good paint job and some old tabard/purity seal bits will go a long way here) along with some of your metals. The regular bolter-toters will help act as a meatshield against your more expensive men, kinda like the "hidden powerfist" idea with tactical squads. Doing this with vets will be tricky, but with a little work you might be able to create a less expensive but much more effective vet squad than what you're trying to make now. Wanna use all the models? Ok, then instead of a combat squad, buy a tactical squad, and you'll be able to make TWO vet squads!
Thanks for all the great ideas guys. It’s much appreciated.
Shockingly this is the only case that I had an impulse to buy based entirely on the box. I'm usually much more methodical about what I am burning money on, and as usual, my impulse didn’t do me much justice (although the models look even better in my codex grey based colour scheme. )
I fielded two of the vet's as vet serge’s last night in a 1000 point match against a friend, and they worked really well. I’m quite sure with some poking and playing with my list, I could squeeze at least most of them in (as you said, the lightning claw vets might have a hard time being placed right now)
I've got many more marines on order already (58 more in total IIRC), so i should be able to push a vet with some of those squads too.
Naturally, I am not setting anything in stone, just giving myself something to think about while slaving away with my brush… When the new dex comes out, I’ll be back on re-making my list, and I can see I’m going to be making it around those models (in some places at least!)
Its nice to see your opponents face when he looks over your squads and sees they all have a bloke in them able to dish out cc goodness. ;-)
The Lig Claw bloke may need a jump pack and become the Vet Serg of an assualt squad! Prolly the only place I use one. Combined with a jump packed chaplain with a power fist (you can choose if he uses the croz if in combat with infantry or use the power fist if against touch stuff) you have a very hard core and fast assualt unit.