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I havent posted in a long while so I have wanted to post some basic premises that I have been using with my guard and see if anyone else has been doing the same.
In some conflicts, specifically ones with lower points allowances, I find that the swarm of lowley bootsloggers is not in my best interest for winning the game, so I will try and forgo the large basic troop platoons and use grenadiers to allow me to use stormtroopers as troops instead. Why do this? Well, in most games you have to have one main HQ and two Troops selections and the basic platoons can actually end up costing quite a bit.
In some low point games (750-1500 points) I dont want to have to take two platoons that cost over three hundred points total just in order to satisfy my troops choices. Now, two minimum guard platoons is 50 men, but as I said some missions call for different tactics.
Even if you want to take one normal platoon and on armored fist squad, youre still just under three hundred points.
The grenadier squads, however, can take as few a five models per squad and still count as BOTH troops choices.
So, two normal platoons have 50 models for over 300 points without any special weapons or doctrines and still are required to satisfy both troop choices.
A platoon and an armored fist squad have 35 models and a Chimera with no special weapons in the squads and no doctrines for just under 300 points and that gets both of your troops choices.
OR, for a mission that you want minimum BS 3 models with flashlights slogging across the board, you can satisfy both of your troops choices for well under 100 points. The grenadiers can take as few as five models apiece. So, 10 models vs. 50 or 35 and the same troops choices are satisfied.
So, for specific missions I can get those five man squads on the board and put three special weapons in them (including Sgt.) and get (for example) six shots of hot plasma death in rapid fire with a ballistic score of 4 (plus two more lasgun shots) out of four models and still have the grand total be less than 85 points per squad.
The simple math is that vs. Space Marines (the most common army in most hobby shops) it takes 20 shots from lasguns to kill one space marine in one turn. 20 shots at BS 3 means half will hit (on average) for 10 hits. The strength of a lasgun vs. marine toughness means that one third will wound, i.e. around 3 wounds. The armor save of a marine squad will allow only one third of the wounds to cause a casualty or in this case.....1. Thats a full ten man squad rapid firing for effect.
My five man squad can bring those plasmas from the previous example and get those six hot death shots with the superior BS score that STs have and hit two thirds of the time, or four out of six. They are then going to wound on anything but a 1 vs. space marine toughness (about 83%) for three wounds with no saves allowed.
1 marine killed by a full squad at base cost or 3 marines killed by five guys with a grand total cost of 20 more points. Even if you gave the normal squad a special weapon they would only hit with it 50% of the time and you cant even field the two basic squads without paying the points for the junior officer and his command platoon.
Again, its a specialized tactic for when I want to field a bunch of special units to deal with specific threats (multiple veteran squads, rough riders to counter-charge, multiple tanks) and want to keep my points down for a lower point battle. Let me know what you think.
Last edited by Guaardvark; June 27th, 2008 at 04:41.
"No dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. You win a war by making the other dumb bastard die for his country." General George S. Patton, Jr.
While it may be true that Grenadiers are by technicality the cheapest total point value per troop choice and that they are far superior to your basic guardsmen at killing things, they lack the numbers, and thus durability I prefer.
You've brought up a good point of taking grenadiers in place of the basic platoon, as they allow you to load up on other specialized equipment. I've done the same thing and it works well, but the loss of a few guardsmen or a tank or heavy weapon team hurts exceptionally in the long run. Guard durability doesn't help in this respect that well. In addition, this lack of troops makes it difficult to hold objectives.
Then again, at such small point values the enemy can be heavily crippled as well by the loss of a few soldiers or the loss of a tank.
I normally take two full platoons of guardsmen, the core of my army. That's one hundred and ten men in a 750 point game with a few points left over for the command squad HQ and whatever other few special/heavy weapons I want. I usually end up suffering horrible fatalities, but winning in the end due to just spending the enemy or holding the objective by sheer numbers on the point.
As you said, different missions call for different tactics. Small, specialized units may be more effective at eliminating the enemy, but they're not very effective at holding ground or taking casualties.
With 5th addition approaching and only troops can take objectives, such small units will have difficulty surviving, thus making this tactic a little more difficult to pull off.
With 5º ed things are a litle diferent. Depends of the mission. One of 3 missions is about kill points. On these case, if the Marine manage to kill a unit of 50x conscripts, he only get 1 kill point. But if he manage to kill 3x Storm Troopers Mini-Squads, he get 3 kill points. Now is not about the cost of the units, is about the number of units. The other two missions is about controling objetives and only Non-Vehicles Troops units can control objetives, they become a main target of the oponent.
Last edited by mareo; June 27th, 2008 at 10:22.
In 500 point games i love seeing the faces when i take my army out of the box.
2 squads of 5 grenadiers
1 JO nothing added on
2 Leman Russes
I would consider this a cheesy but effectivce list (few armys can deal with the 2 tanks at such a low level)
2 grenadier squads at 5 men each allow major tread heads to field all out tank attacks.
sadly these kinds of lists will become obsolete with 5th edition looming. they simply cant deal with kill points
"Thank him who puts me loath to this revenge on you who wrong me not for him who wrongd"
What I'd really like to know is just how on earth did you manage to get two platoons for 300pts?! One of my two platoons costs that much! Of course, I do use advisors, but other that that - it's just basic special weapons and no heavies in squads!
Back on topic - I don't really like the Grenadiers setup - it just doesn't leave an army that relies on numbers with many options! I manage to squeeze heavy weapon squads into my army even in small games with two full platoons. It always makes me giggle when you park three autocannons on an objective guarded by an entire platoon! Let's see you budge us now, SMurf tactical squad!
But seriously - in my experience, winning with the Guard relies on tactics and rolling with both hands in your shooting phase! Obviously Grenadiers don't allow that, so they don't have a place in my army list.
Two platoons for 300pts is impossible a min platoon costs 160 beforw weapons. What he said was two basic platoons with no weapons cost more than 300 points, you illustrated what it costs with weapons eg.
Typically my basic platoons are somewhere around 250 ish points (for balanced lists).
As for the grenadiers I have found that it depends on play style with grenadiers. When I used to play a lot one of my friends used a grenadier list. He won quite a few games even assaulting nidzilla style lists (used used priests with evi's). When I used my grenadiers in my smaller lists I found that again If I played the squad very aggresively then they worked, If I took them because they were cheap then It effectively wasted a few points for me.
You final point really brings it home. grenadiers are for when special tactics are going ot be used. A fine tuned gren list will be able to take on all comers but that takes a lot of time and money. A lot of people who take grenadiers dont realise that they are pretty much useless unless you give them a transport.
To take your example a squad of guardsmen say with heavy bolter and plasma (common anti MEQ) hits out aginst marines.
at 36-24 inches thats 0.333 kills
24- 12 inches that is 1.19 kills
12 -0 inches is 1.63
grens x6 with dual plasma
36-24 inches 0kills
24-12 1.3333 kills
12-0 inches is 2.814 kills
now clearly at close range a gren squad has the advantage but there are lots of other variables. firstly if the enemy starts at say 26 inches away the platoon gets 4.343 kills before the charge, the grens get 5.48 still a significant margin however troops dont move like that. They also get shot at. The plasma also has to be taken into account, the grens have a 1/6 chance of losing all of their decent firepower at mid range and a 2/3 chance at short range, essentially they have a loss rate of 1 gren in this scenario which saying its the last man could still help them out. The chance of the platoon squad losing this firepower is pretty much tiny as they rely more on the heavy bolter for firepower.
Now the grenadiers need expensive support which has to be carefully tailored, the platoon has it in built as there are three squads. Now there is the problem of movement and people hiding say behind cover. This really hurts the grenadiers.
Essentially what all of this mathammer leads to is that the grens squad is more fragile. It's optimum range means its chances of being charged are near enough 100% giving you a single round of shooting whereas the platoons will seek to engage at medium range where thay will get several rounds of shooting. In conclusion an aggresive play style and very careful consideration must accompany any effecient use of grenadiers.
These stats also lead to an interesting point. a use of grenadiers as line squads, as we can see they have a better kill rate with plasma at mid range, they also have the manoueverability (ie. special wepaons to stay at that range) what if they went for say grenade launchers to get rid of the plasma overheat problem? could an effective gunline force of grenadiers be used?
Think I'm gonna make a list say 1000 points and post it up
Hope that helps
There are some good points here but I believe that basic infantry is always important and should nopt be neglected. The main reason I use guardsmen platoon is to have as many big guns as possible and litterally scare my opponent with numbers (always considering that my opponent doesn't have a horde army himself.)
Sure there a bit more expensive than grenadiers but you can take a lot more of them and you have to remember that this is a game of dice. No matter how good the odds are, there's always a chance to fail. Of course the opposite holds equally true (yeah that's right, I rolled a 6! XD) So having more men means more dices.
Imperial Guard: 3000 pts
Chaos Daemons: 1000 pts
Remember, I am talking about the minimum costs with no weapon upgrades, grenades, or anything that increases their points cost.
The platoon minimum is a Command Squad and two infantry squads.
The minimum cost of those things combined is under 165 points...without being too specific.
When I write over this number or under that number I am generalizing as to not break copyright which several years ago was heavily enforced on the board.
Am I wrong in my math somewhere becuase it would not come as a shock, I am an idiot.
Last edited by Guaardvark; June 28th, 2008 at 19:48.
I actually did know a chap who did just that! Played against him, in fact. And who would've thought that pimping out your Guard actually made a difference?? He got slaughtered, despite the fact that I was heavily outnumbered. Moral of this story - never EVER use the most basic platoon you can!
And don't put yourself down man, I'm sure you're not an idiot!
I don't own any normal platoons and always use Grenadiers. My force is based round Stormtroopers, Grenadiers and Sentinels, with some heavy weapon teams and no tanks.
I just don't like the normal platoons at all, mainly becuase of thier armour save. For me, point for point, the Grenadiers are so much better.