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A biggie this time around : Doctrines and their many uses.
Pretty much every guard player has an opinion here, or a tale to tell. Some people feel we don't need to use doctrine, yet most never write an army list without 'em.
Some feel that many of the doctrines are a waste of time (like cybernetic enhancements - not the most efficient of choices, I must admit! But my Skitarii do use it anyway, from time to time).
Some feel that other choices, such as Iron Discipline, are almost cheesy by comparison!
So let us know: What Doctrines do you use, and why?
What doctrines would you never use?
And what impact do you feel 5th edition will have on these choices? I for one feel that combining light infantry and drop troops will make some IG armies the most tactically flexible army in the game.
So lets start talking!
"Pickles, the drummer, doodily doo. (Ding-dong, doodily, doodily, doo.)"
Also, you should google "garfield minus garfield". Awesome.
I always use sharpshooters some people don't like it because everyone uses it and others don't think its worth it but come on it rocks even giving you the extra chance with las guns is helpful and I can't tell you how much times my lascannons and missile launchers have needed it, and it makes plasma guns and heavybolters that much more effective. And when your playing witch hunters with a few inducted gaurd you'll dearly miss it.
I usually always use Heavy weapon platoons and techpriests as well. Heavy weapon platoons fit right in with my theme as a trench army providing that highly needed fire support and anti horde/tank when I usually only take one basilisk. Techpriests hold a speciall place in my heart and I take them whenever I can they usually give me more heavy weapon backup which you can never have to much of. Although sadly there one of the first things that I take out if I need more doctrines our troops.
I usually also take Cameleoline Because trench troopers especially my veteran regiment would have to get used to using cover efficiently or they would propably be dead. Cameleoline is useful for a number of reasons in urban terrain you can get 3+ cover saves regularly or even 2+ of your in a fortified building.
I usually use veterans as well I love plasma guns which you can get plenty of with veterans and the extra BS always helps to strengthen weak parts of your line. and lets face it veterans are awesome.
In my other Imperial Guard armies I have different doctrines like Drop Troops whuch is awesome Close order drill, light infantry Rough Rider Squadrons Ogryns and from what i hear about the new sniper rules I'll soon add ratlings and substitute there models. And ome times for a nit of change I use apecial weapon squads for some snipers instead of Techpriests
Guard armies (in my opinion) should always take Iron Discipline (cause its cheap and awesome) and Drop Troops (just for the option if not anything else). Apart from that its get whatever you like. Close Order Drill should be gotten if you have a doctrine point spare, Light Infantry is great for Heavy Weapon Squads and Cameleoline can be excellent if you have enough terrain/few enough troops to fit all your squads in cover. Apart from that a few points buying back specialist troops (rough riders come to mind) and getting the 'Veterans' doctrine are always good.
My favorite is Mechanized. But in small army lists I end using Grenadiers for avoid an excess of infantry (and Chimeras). Also I really like Close Order Drill, when paired with veteran sargents, give a nice L9 to my squads.
Some Combos that I never tried:
Jungle Fighters + Camaleonine
Conscript Platoons + Independient Commissars
Hardened Fighters + Xeno Fighters + Warrior Weapons
For my gunline I take Iron discipline, Drop Troops, Stormtroopers, Sharpshooters, and Close Order Drill, and for my mechanized I take Mechanized, Grenadiers, Iron Discipline, Die Hards, and Carapace Armor.
Iron Discipline is kind of a must have doctrine... I don't see a lot of lists without it. It's handy, but I don't know if it is so effective as to be cheesy.
I take Drop Troops mostly for the option as Kroxigor said. It's nice to DS an autocannon toting sentinel in position to get a rear armor shot.
Stormtroopers provide a tougher objective holding unit for my gunline, usually in a chimera or by deep strike.
I usually only put sharpshooters on lascannon/missile support squads, mostly because with line squads you tend to use volume of fire as opposed to quality of fire, therefore I'd rather save the points and buy more squads. With support squads however, quality of fire becomes more important, thus the re-roll.
Close Order drill is probably my favorite of the bunch. The extras provided by the doctrine help even the odds in CC, and if you combine those effects with as much shooting as possible before the inevitable assault, you should come out on top.
Mechanized is a whole lot of fun when things are going well. Nothing says "Might of the Imperial Guard" quite like 2 Leman Russes, a Demolisher, and a whole lot of Chimeras rampaging around the battlefield. 5th edition might make this a little harder to pull off since you will be taking far fewer troops than a gunline, but still, the basic premise remains the same: If you smash enough of their troops with big guns, they won't be taking more objectives than you.
Grenadiers of course are a better troops choice for a Mechanized army. Better survivability and ballistic skill mean good times for mobile troopers.
Die Hards becomes a more viable choice for a Mech army, as these guys will be closer to the action than is ideal for a gunline.
Carapace armor, though in a gunline I hate it, is a little more necessary in big point games with a mechanized force. Survivability seriously counts when you don't have a lot of troopers on the table.I hope you mean that it makes the unit more effective as a whole, because sharpshooters doesn't have an effect on plasma guns.and it makes plasma guns and heavybolters that much more effective.
Last edited by SimulatedSnowman; July 7th, 2008 at 13:43.
In my standard list I usually take Iron Discipline, Close Order Drill, Drop Troops, Hardened Fighters and Sharpshooters.
Kind of a different approach but here's how it plays out. I apply Hardened Fighters to my command squads with a hidden power fist commissar, and to my deep striking heavy flamer sentinels. I also use Drop Troops to deep strike my vet squad. Sharpshooters gets applied to my heavy weapons squads. Everyone that can stand to benefit from Iron Discipline and Close Order Drill take advantage of them when they can.
Recently I have been toying with the idea of combining Jungle Fighters with Drop Troops to deep strike a heavy flamer with a regular flamer on a relatively cheap squad.
In my opinion Close Order Drill, Iron Discipline and Drop Troops should be in almost every IG army build as they are free, or near to it, and afford a much higher tactical advantage to an undoctrined guard squad in most cases.
Last edited by Fenix1776; July 7th, 2008 at 17:59.
What do you call a lasgun with a laser sight?
I enjoy using the Abhuman doctrine (white dwarf) Afriel Strain. For a very cheap price your troops get the "And they shall know no fear" special rule (not to mention you get cool fluff for your army)
I want to try out the Abhuman doctrine Feral World Ogryns (2 CCW for ogryns and their troop choices!)
I also want to try out a jungle fighter+droop troops army. Use the heavy flamers from jungle fighters so you can have a flamer and heavy flamer on the drop its almost like Sisters of Battle
"Thank him who puts me loath to this revenge on you who wrong me not for him who wrongd"
The three main doctrines I use are Veterans, Grenaiders, and Heavy Weapon platoons.
Then for the other 2, it is using either sharpshooters, Iron Disclipne, and close order drills.
I had written an earlier post on comparing the doctrines with the 5th edition rule set and ID is going to be rule lawyering considering that there is no longer individual negative modifiers to add up. It is all combat resolution. So if you take a LD test at -4, what part of the -4 is due to being under half strength? None by the RAW. Also what is half strength when every man is scoring? I can see some external rules aka house rules coming into play.
Where the heck did all them guardsmen come from?
Great Wolf! Is that the howl of the 13th?
Doctrines give us access to many useful tabletop abilities, there's no doubt about that, but the real benefit of Dcotrines, IMO, is the fluff they add to the Guard army. I've been thinking of designing a Guard army with: Cyber Augmentation, Chem Inhalers, Storm Troopers, Grenadiers, and Tech-Priest Enginseers. The fluff behind the army is that they herald from a top secret research post responsible for incorporating alien technologies into Imperial technologies. I know what you're all thinking, "Heretic!", which is why an Inquisitor and Officio Assassinorum Operative have been assigned to the planet to keep things in check. See, Doctrines give your imagination room to run wild.
On a technical note:
Cyber Augmentation: I disagree with alot of Guard players on the usefullness of this doctrine. Since practically every standard weapon in the game is AP5 having that guranteed 6+ save really helps out. Then people say: "deploy in cover", then I say: "there is not always sufficient cover to deploy in". With the new Going to Ground rules lack of cover is not as much of a hindrance as it once was, however, what Guard player wants to lose a turn of shooting to save Private Flashlight. I agree, the points cost is outrageous, I wouldn't even consider using this doctrine in a competitive tournament.
Iron Discipline: Chem Inhalers are better. Unmodified LD all of the time owns Iron Discipline. However, with the consolidating into another assault rules thrown out of the window locking nasty assault units in CC is not as beneficial as it once was.
Cameleoline: With the abundance of cover saves granted in 5th edition I see this doctrine becoming a much more popular and immensely more useful doctrine for Guard players giving us an invulnerable 4+ pretty much all of the time. However, it's points cost will probably increase.
Drop Troops: The IG aren't exactly known for thier mobility and now with Troops only being able to claim objectives this doctrine has become cooler than it already was. However, I predict the deepstriking capability will come with a points cost in the new codex.
Last edited by counterwavecounter; July 29th, 2008 at 00:52.
"The man in the bowler hat is Mr. Average in his anonymity. I, too, wear one; I have no great desire to stand out from the masses." - Rene Magritte
I use Iron Discipline without variation. I don't feel its unfluffy - Leadership test failures implies not only a panicked route but also a controlled withdrawl... and with that in mind, I can see Space Marines 'fleeing,' or ducking and withdrawing, where Mordian Iron Guard would stand and die to the last man (who hopefully would die clutching the Company standard!) Non-cowardly Guard armies exist within the fluff and ID exemplifies excellently. That said, it is very powerful and if it cost more points I'd think about not taking but, for 5pts a model its just too useful.
I use Sharpshooters almost as frequently, as on things like a Lascannon squad it is just too good. I know its a-typical (1/216th chance I think!) but I did roll three 1's last game with a Lascannon squad... and my opponent laughed until I re-rolled two 4's and a 5... his Dreadnought regretted me taking Sharpshooters, and I didn't!
I use Veterans a lot too - especially against MEQs as 3 plasma guns hopping out of a Chimera and rapid-firing at BS4 is painful for a Tactical Squad to endure.
Drop Troops is another I frequently take - that I agree is unfluffy, to have the Command Squad off doing heroics (or more likely dying uselessly) while the men stay back. They are just too effective against rock-hard things like Land Raiders, though, to avoid.
The final thing I take is usually Grenadiers... I like speeding up a Squad of those guys in a Chimera - they make excellent objective-grabbers. I converted two of them with meltaguns just now into plasma guns, so I'll soon have two squads of them, ready to fight and die for the Emperor.
Those are the five I take usually... its bland but effective.
"Not Another Step Back! Death to the Enemies of Man!"