Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I dont know how many of you have been able to play with the new 5th Edition rules, but I have now for several weeks. One of the most profound things that has happened that I dont see any posts about is the way in which wounds are allocated.
If you have a 10 man squad and they take 5 wounds, you roll five armor saves and however many you fail you remove that many casualties of your choice from the unit. No brainer.
But, if you have a 10 man unit and you take more wounds then you have models it gets interesting. You then have to allocate one wound to every model before allocating a second to it and go through the whole squad. You can then put the spare hit anywhere you like.
Then you have to break the squad up into sub categories and roll their armor saves seperately.
The sub categories are dictated by ANY difference in statline, weapons, or wargear. So, if you have a squad with a Sgt., a meltagun, a heavy bolter, and seven normal troops you have four sub groups. If you have more wounds than models in a particular sub-group then you must roll wounds over to another sub group which can be a single model.
With the above 11 wound scenario you would assign one wound to each model then the extra to whoever you want, probably a grunt.
Then you roll your armor saves seperately for each sub unit type and the wounds that failed a save must be applied to that unit - and if its one guy he is greased.
So with the squad from above the Sgt would roll a save, the meltagun would roll a save, the heavy bolter would roll a save, and the remaining seven troops would roll the last 8 wounds. Different color dice are dictated in the rulebook to keep track of this and they even go so far as saying that you might want to go ahead and roll them each seperately. As the bad news is learned from your rolls, you start plucking out models from the groups that took unsaved wounds.
So it is quite feasable (believe me, oh believe me) for you to lose your precious heavy or special weapon in this way and not be able to prevent it.
You can lose your non-special character Commissar with powerfist, your Sgt. and his leadership, your mighty Sanctioned Psyker - all by failing a single armor save.
Now, if you only take a few wounds and have to roll saves things arent any different. It only gets different if you take more wounds than you have models in a particular sub group. So, can protect your special weapons and better models to a degree...but if the wounds start adding up then everyone is in jeopardy.
In the old rules a ten man squad of any configuration that took ten wounds could take ten armor saves, fail half (for example) and take off the five worst models in the unit and keep on keeping on. Now, you have a chance in that example to PASS nine of the wounds but STILL lose the one guy in the squad you didnt want to lose most.
For those of you in doubt of this report I will direct you to both your local Games Workshop outlet to petition a red-shirt or to the source, the 5th Edition rule book on page 25. There is a helpful diagram at the bottom of the page that will cement this bad news in your brain and make you question the fabric of reality as I have.
I will let this sink in before we all begin to discuss the ramifications.
"No dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. You win a war by making the other dumb bastard die for his country." General George S. Patton, Jr.
Oh Yea, I love that rule. Guess what? No more saving plasma gunners and sergeants for last, now they can die whether or not you want them to.
This rule is truly marvelous in terms of balancing things out. Now, sergeants, vox operators, special and heavy weapon troops all have an equal chance of dying, not just the once you would pick, like in the 4th ed.
I agree. this rule definately balances things out and adds an additional level of realism to the game. A sergeant is just as likely to get capped as a grunt. plus it never made any sense for you to lose 90% of your army and still have a bunch of lone sergeants/ plasma gunners running around.
That is not dead which may eternal lie,
for in strange aeons even death may die.
Is it new? Yes. Is it realistic? Arguably. Is it balanced? Surely not.
Certain armies rely on having their special weapons do the heavy lifting and require them so they can take out the different threats enemies pose. Armies that have every member in the squad equipped identically don't have this problem as they typically have many more options to choose from. Their unit is designed to target a specific threat. In most imperial armies all their troops are identical, the only thing that sets them apart are the weapons. Rather than taking an anti armor squad like some other armies might, they have to take a regular squad and give them a special weapon to take on heavy armor. For example a fire dragon squad maintains its ability to kills vehicles until the last member is killed, but a stormtrooper squad with a meltagun looses its ability to kill tanks the moment the special model dies.
I dont have the new rulebook, and I was hearing scary reports about something like this, but if it really is how you say it is then not much has changed really.
In 4th Edition, if you have to roll more saves than you have models in the unit, then your opponent can nominate a single save (before you roll it) to go on whoever he wants. eg, your 10-man squad takes 11 wounds, I can say "I nominate that black die (singular of dice?)to be the heavy weapon guy." You then roll the saves, and if that black die that I nominated fails the save, then the heavy got capped. (see page 26-27 in the 4th edition rulebook, in fairness this rule is extremely obscure and I don't think anyone really uses it).
From what you're saying, 5th edition is slightly worse because in the above situation, every special model in the unit would be nominated, instead of just 1. But as a guard player, I wouldn't worry too much about it. If your guard unit is taking more saves than there are models, you can safely assume that they are in deep trouble. I think this rule is going to hurt the MEQ's worse than us, because they rely on a smaller number of super-humans, hence they'll be outnumbered by the hail of bullets more often than us.
Tyranids: 2500 pts
Imperial Guard: 1000 pts
Witch Hunters: 1000 pts
yea this sounds like the best rule, right after the fact that only infantry are scoring units
i plan on having more flamers and heavy bolters in my army from this!!!!
6 heavy bolters= no more marine with powerfist, or that stupid flamer, or that lascannon!!!!!!!
Hellhounds are good tanks
Satan - "**** you Kage! And **** you Jables! I'll get you Tenacious DDDDdddddddeeeeee!!!!!!"
I believe I brought this up about the heavy weapon being killed and the loader survives situation in another post regarding heavy weapons and yet folks were brushing it off. I don't think people are understanding that you will be able to lose the heavy weapon and the loader can't just pick it up like it has been before. Wound allocation is overriding the clause in the heavy weapon teams section.
Where the heck did all them guardsmen come from?
Great Wolf! Is that the howl of the 13th?
We are guard. If a squad takes 10 wounds its dead anyway (baring cover). For marines however this is a problem, in the old edition 10 wounds means 3-4 grunts dying, in 5th it means the chance to lose you power fist sergeant, your Lascannon or your Plasmagun!
You seem to be making a distinction here between loader and gunner where none actually exists.
If the 'gunner' dies, the 'loader' who is also a 'gunner' CAN pick up the weapon and keep on firing. If both die, well, thats a whole 'nother story.
Direct quote from the IG codex:Nowhere, seriously, nowhere does the codex distinguish between a 'loader' and a 'gunner'."Two guardsmen may form a single heavy weapon team"
Seriously, there is no difference (other than aesthetics) between the 'loader' and the 'gunner'!!!
So yeah - no offence meant , but this is most definitely a deliberate 'brush off'.
"Pickles, the drummer, doodily doo. (Ding-dong, doodily, doodily, doo.)"
Also, you should google "garfield minus garfield". Awesome.
It is a change to the rules, but it isn't the end of the world by any means. sometimes you will not be able to protect your heavy weapon or tooled up character, but it just means you have to try and be a bit more careful. It does affect some armies more than others but I don't see it as that much of an issue.
Guard have a slightly better chance of keeping their Heavy weapon firing (due to 2 crew) than Marines under this rule (as weapon is given to 1 marine)
Gaunts, and Eldar with no Exarchs are laughing sure, but every other squads will have some differences somewhere.
Arch Overfiend & Grand Despot
I currently play:
Doom Eagle Space Marines
Hive Fleet Omega Tyranids
Goff Ork Boyz(dead)
Tau of O'me
Inquisitorial Xeno Hunters
and my attempted foray into fantasy
'Dark Angel Green' Dark Elves in need of fluff