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I don't really know how to figure out, for example, how many marines need to be under the blast radius for frag to be a better option than krak grenades. Same goes with missiles, but I don't really use them. I prefer grenades for my blasts, autocannons for light vees, and lascannons for heavy vees.
Obviously it'd seem against 4+ armored opponents you can't really get enough people into a small blast to make killing them more likely unless they're in base to base contact, though there's always the small chance of killing several anyway. But I don't really know how to figure it for lightly and heavily armored models.
But then of course you have to figure in that blasts scatter and kraks just outright miss half the time.
ok.. some (very) rough Mathhammer...
Krak grenade vs. SM: 1/2 chance of hitting, 5/6 of wounding = 5/12 chance of forcing 1 3+ armour save.
Frag grenade vs Sm: hitting one of them has a 1/2 (6/12) chance of forcing an armour save.
So.. if you assume that, even with a scatter of (I think, can't remember the rules) max of 3"? d6"-BS3? you'll hit at least 1 marine, a Frag grenade has more chance of killing a Space Marine than a Krak grenade.
I'll try and work out odds of hitting with scatter, but as I can't really rememebr the rules, this may be complete cattle faeces.
If firing at one marine, a scatter of more than 2" will miss the Marine. (assuming template is centred on the base, as base has 0.5" radius, + 1.5" radius of small blast template)
1/3 chance of hitting on scatter
2/3 chance of missing on scatter, but roll of 1-5 will hit anyway (doesn't scatter enough, only a full scatter of 3" will miss the marine you've aimed at)
so, chance shot scattering and hitting anyway = 2/3 * 5/6 = 10/18 = 5/9
1/3 (3/9) + 5/9 = 8/9 chance of hitting a single marine with a frag grenade
8/9 to hit, 1/2 to wound = 8/18 (4/9)
OK. so, Frag grenade has a 4/9 chance of causing a wound on a SM. Krak Grenade has a 5/12.
that's 8/18 for Frag, and 7.5/18 for Krak.
So, as Frag is marginally more effective, and has the chance of hitting others in the squad aswell, I'd say go Frags against MEqs. Assuming my maths isn't completely wrong.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC
Scatter is 2d6-BS actually. But I can see your point, it's got a pretty decent chance of at least hitting something, even if it scatters into another unit, while the krak has half a chance.
However, since it's a 1.5 inch radius, wouldn't a 2 inch scatter miss the marine as well?
2d6-BS? Right, I'll change that... Ad the template may be 1.5" radius, but you can add half an inch from the base of the model, can't you? As the template will start centred on the model, and partial covers count as full hits in the new rules
OK. The bit I need to re-do.
Chance of scattering and hitting a single marine, at 2d6" Scatter:
2/3 chance of scattering.
chance of still hitting (any result from 2-5 on 2d6)= erg.
Chance of getting 2= 1/36
of 3= 2/36
of 4= 3/36
of 5= 4/36
chance of getting <6= 10/36
2/3 * 10/36 = 20/108 = 5/27
So, chance of frag grenade hitting an MEQ= 1/3 (9/27) + 5/27 = 14/27
Chance of hitting and wounding = 14/27 * 1/2 = 14/54 = 7/27
so, if fired at a unit of 1 Space Marine, Frag Grenades have a 7/27 chance of forcing an armour save, Krak Grenades have a 5/12.
that's... 84/324 for Frag, and 135/324 for Krak. So, against 1 Marine, a krak is 1.6x as effective as a Frag Grenade.
But, that's against 1 marine, against a squad, I'd still say it'd be better to fire a Frag.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC
Alright then, that makes sense. Though I thought the bases weren't a full half-inch radius. I haven't played with the 5th edition rules yet so I've never had an opportunity to use scatters.
EDIT: Gah! PC being slow made me send the same post twice. I do apologise
Last edited by Wolf Lord Herby; July 22nd, 2008 at 21:22.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC
40k is played on (predominantly) 1-inch bases. so, radius of half an inch
Even if a 2" scatter misses, it only changes the outcome by 1/18 anyway.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC
So then.
With Tau, frags have a 1/4 chance of killing, while kraks have a 5/6 chance
Then that becomes 5/12 chance for kraks hitting and killing, while frags have a 3/12 chance of killing every one that they hit. They have a 14/108 chance of hitting and killing what they're aimed at, versus a 45/108 chance of kraks hitting and killing. So if you think it has a good chance of scatter landing on something, 2 tau hit is better than 1 krak grenade, but you'd need for 3-4 to be under your blast radius to make it be worth the scatter risk.
Against orks, frags have a 1/3 chance to kill, kraks have a 5/6 chance. Considering their squad sizes a 1/3 chance of dropping what it hits is plenty to not use krak against.
Against gaunts it's even better, a 1/2 chance for the frag to wound what it hits.
Against guardsmen and dark eldar and such it's a 1/2 chance to wound and a 2/3 chance to fail the save, so a 1/3 chance to kill. So basically in the same boat as the orks, especially if they're using close order drill. But since we have so many units if you scatter you're still bound to clip something.
So it looks like the only legitimate time to use kraks are against vehicles, 4+ saves, and really high toughness monstrous creatures. If there's any models with T4 and a 5+ save kraks would be better there as well unless you can nail 3-4, I think vespids and nid elites are like that.
Last edited by jh316; July 22nd, 2008 at 22:01.
you are more likely to hit a marine with a frag grenade(and more likely to kill more)
since there are no partials now in 5th, as long as it touches a base it counts, so you are extremely likely to hit at least 1 marine
also, yes i know that a krak grenade is double the strength of a frag grenade, but with the frag grenade you will likely have 2 or 3 chances to cause a wound, and with the krak, its only one chance
also when you play vs weaker opponents, the frag grenade will own as long as they arent in cover.
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