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Sorry about last week guys - didn't get around to posting a topic! I could talk about not having much time to really post stuff, etc... but really I was probably just being lazy.
Anyway, here's this week's topic: The great devourer.
I thought that 'specific enemies' is a topic that comes up quite often, and thus it might make for a great discussion.
So then: What are your thoughts on the Tyranid menace? Do you play against them often, and if so, how do you handle them?
If you don't, perhaps you could voice what you might concievably try, and ask others for their views on your ideas.
Also, which specific 'nid units threaten you the most, and which the least? What tactics would you advise against an all-rounder 'nid list, vs the extremes ('nidzilla' and 'the swarm').
How does 5th edition change the way you tackle this type of opponent? Do you expect less monstrous creatures, and perhaps more hormagaunts? If so, what will you do to?
Lets get our thoughts out there, guys! Anything and everything relevant goes!
"Pickles, the drummer, doodily doo. (Ding-dong, doodily, doodily, doo.)"
Also, you should google "garfield minus garfield". Awesome.
I have nothing but utter hatred for the foul xenos! haha
One of my best friends plays tyranids and I've had everything from MC lists to, steeler lists to a moving carpet of gaunts and when played in the right hands all of these lists can be quite formidable.
My way of dealing with them... here is a quick summary of my 1,850 all comers list
HSO, banner, mortar
2 Las cannon support squads
2 platoons of 6 squads (jo 2 plasmas, 1st platoon HB and Plasma, 2nd Platoon AC and Plasma
2 8 man hardened vet squads 3 plasmas 1 LC
2 LRBT w/3 HB's
2 Hell Hounds
so I have 16 plasma guns and 8 las cannons for any big nastys, 2 battle cannons ,2 hellhounds and my line squads for crowd control.
I used to run things like Missile launchers until I encountered 5 monstrous creatures with a 2+ armor save! So all in all I have alot of respect for 'nids to the point where they heavily influence the make up of my standard lists.
But from experience nothing strikes fear in the heart of a 'nid player like a couple hellhounds BBQing them!
Playing against 'nids makes me slightly uncomfortable. Nidzilla lists don't bother me so much, since it's more difficult to glance a tank to death now, but swarms do bother me. Even with a full load of tanks, I can generally count on outnumbering my opponent. Something about getting out-hoarded freaks me out a little. Plus, the two guys I know who run swarm lists are hormagaunt heavy, and those guys get into close combat so quick as to not have the common decency to wait around for a bit and get shot by my long range weapons.
I've found though that hellhounds supported by a squad or two of infantry acting as a screen can do wonders. I generally try to direct the hellhound's fire (oh snap I went there) at the actual horde and use infantry squads to go after synapse. I don't find Basilisks as effective against fast moving hordes, since they get in so close so quickly, but Leman Russes are pretty good at moving around and still putting down high strength pain. Mortar squads might be good, especially since gaunt squads tend to be huge and thus hard to miss, but such a tactic would require another squad or two to once again shield the mortars and keep them firing.
I think you need to spend more time on your floor.
2500 Black Templars
Well, my other army is a swarm (sounds like a car window sticker doesnt it?), and I have only "played" against them once, and that was when teaching my little brother how to play, so it probably doesnt count as a serious game.
However, opinions from the other side are as follows.
Guard can have a field day with Tyranids, but on certain conditions. 1) Its a stand up fight or a mission that doesnt involve running forwards and 2) You play either an all infantry gunline or vehicle heavy.
Heavy Bolters are very VERY nice against swarmy Tyranid armies, they wound everything except the big boys with ease and ignore the saves of everything except them too. Against the large gribblies Lascannon are the way to go, Krak missiles have the strength, but the targets for the big guns have an option of a 2+ save. Hellhounds are SWEET. However this is simply going over what is already common knowledge.
So, given that what to shoot them with is known, what may not be entirely understood is what they can shoot you back with. Tyranids have some of the most effective short ranged firepower out there, things (Hive Tyrants, Tyranid Warriors and Carnifexeseses) that can carry Twin Linked Devourers are something to fear, with a capital "ARRRGGGHHH!". Okay, they are one of the few guns that our troops get a save against, but it means nothing. The sheer number of shots they can pump out, rerolling BOTH to-hit and to-wound rolls mean that a Hive Tyrant with two of them can potentially wipe out a squad every turn. These really are something to fear, even more so than the large creatures normally are. Kill things carrying twin devourers fast. Oh, and one more thing, one of the most devastatingly effective Shooty tyrant builds has a big pair of wings and a 2+ save to go with that shootyness. Prioritise Flying Tyrants, kill them as quickly as possible.
While their anti-infantry firepower is worrying (even the cheapest weapon that can go on a gaunt is Twin Linked, and the others have living ammunition) Anti-Tank wise, they are lacking, severely. While Carnifexes can tote a S10 gun (all tyranid weapons are linked to the strength of the thing carrying them, in case you didnt know) it cannot penetrate anything with a roof, not even a tent on wheels. So we dont have to worry about things blowing up so much. Unless you keep your Basilisks in plain sight, which you dont do you? Unfortunately, even a glance stops a tank shooting for a turn, and against an opponent with three carnefexes lugging Venom Cannon you can expect two or three vehicles to not be doing much a turn while the shooters live. They will often have a S8 assault weapon (all tyranid weapons are assault as well, in case you didnt know) that uses the ordinance blast, and this can penetrate, so if you have many vehicles devoting some firepower into these buggers can pay dividends. But dont focus overmuch on them, because while you do, the rest of the swarm is getting steadily closer.
Close Combat, well, quite simply, anything the Tyranids have will roll over Guard, even if it is tooled for shooting. Dont let them get this close.
Target Priority. Right, this is where (in my opinion and experience) wars against the Tyranids are won and lost. Firstly, fast stuff. Especially that winged Tyrant, whether shooty or combaty it is a right nasty bugger as well as a points sink and often the pride of the tyranid player in question. Three good reasons to introduce him to mr Lascannon, and mr Lascannon's friends mr Lascannon and mr Lascannon.
While shooting any AP2 things you have at the Flying 'Orrible, those heavy bolters, ordinance weapons, Multilasers and actually anythign else should be laying into anything that doesnt have a 3+ save. Especially the fast things that complement the flying tyrant. Raveners, Winged or Leaping warriors, Gargoyles and Hormagaunts are all prime targets here, kill them while your big guns are at work on the big targets.
Now that (hopefully) the flying tyrant is dead as of the moment it left itself in LoS, if you have vehicles or Close Order Drill, the Venom Cannon/Barbed Strangler carnifexes need killing. This is harder than it sounds as they have a prodigious amount of wounds so this could well tie up your big guns for some time, but that okay, thats their job. Meanwhile, turn those smaller guns on any Tyranid Warriors left, they are both Synapse, and squishy, so squish them. This should hopefully leave the front wave of gaunts that has been annoyingly getting in the way of your nailing the rest of the swarm without synapse cover, if this is the case, get gaunt killing. Just because they are cheap and LOOK like cannon fodder doesnt mean they cant do unpleasant things to you at close range. They ought to run away if outside synapse. If there are Zoanthropes about providing synapse (which they dont always do, check this before the game starts) then divert some lascannon or plasma power to finishing them off.
Genestealers, the ultimate hand to hand nasty. These, despite the better save and extra toughness still fall rapidly if you have those lovely lovely heavy bolters, they dont run away like gaunts do however.
To sum up the above that I doubt anyone read or made sense of if they did... Shoot things in direct proportion to their speed. Make an exception for slow things that are big.
Last edited by Beardy_Wierdy; July 28th, 2008 at 21:09.
The name refers to facial hair, not playing style.Originally Posted by A news vendor's stand, London, June 1940
Very good post, Beardy, just one point:
Tyranids can penetrate, oh they do pretty well... if the target is oppen-topped. So watch out those sentinels and basilisks.
5e has brought a few HUGE changes to the game. Now your niddy friend can't consolidate from one unit to the other. And with their crappy saves, the bugs will be sitting on the open waiting for flashlight death. So use decoy units. You are one of the few armies that can do it well, so please, do. Nothing is more frustrating than wiping a small unit that was worth nothing and find out that you are sitting on rapid-fire range of a GI gunline with no armour save to speak of.
Also, sentinels can hold whole swarms of gaunts by themselves. Unless there's a medium-big bug nearby, a sentinel can tie in melee a large swarm of gaunts (which was meant to tie in melee something else) and it can't harm it back, since their strength is too low. It can help to protect objectives from a large swarm.
Finally, watch out for outflanking nids. With the new rules (CC hitting rear armour) it's better to hide the tanks near the middle of the board, because some nid players (like me ) may try to outflank with something just to take a nice shot at that AV10.
The reality of 4+ cover saves and no consolidation makes it very viable to string your expendable Infantry Squads out in front to truly slow down the enemy. I play Tyranids more often than most other armies, and I have a fair bit of 4th ed. experience, but next to none in 5th.
Like it was said above, target priority is absolutely and utterly vital. Connected directly to this is the speed of the units. While the lack of consolidation and the fact that you can shoot through hand to hand makes this slightly less pivotal now, it still is probably the most important thing to remember when fighting Tyranids. Barbed stranglers, things that used to decimate my Infantry squads with unnering reliability are worse - while they offer no partials, they scatter and if they want to target anything valuable (i.e. not Infantry Squads) they have a 4+ cover save... which is good enough for me, haha.
I have never played against Nidzilla however, but I have an awful lot of plasma and a conscript platoon, so I could hopefully tie one or two up, and then shoot the others to death at close range... unless the swine have T7, in which case I am in trouble haha.
"Not Another Step Back! Death to the Enemies of Man!"
Conscript Hordes with either a command squad or indy commissar (although you have to be extra careful with them) are great for tying up close combat carnifex's
If you have a indy commissar then remeber that they have to move first to get into base to base! In order to combat this make sure they are behind plenty of conscripts and extremely far back from the very first one.
Watch out for outflanking broodlords and friends. They can charge on the turn they come in!
Deploy carefully, you don't want to give that horde of gaunts a 4+ save because you deployed a another line squad in front of your heavy bolters or deployed them too deep into terrain.
Hormagaunts are nasty. 2 attacks at S4 with fleet and leaping they can potentially cover 24" in one turn if they are found to be in charge range.
Without number gaunts are annoying. Alot of tyranid players will throw them at you for you to waste shots on then respawn them back by their objective in the deployment zone. With VP's not mattering as much (unless you choose to let it) this has no downside in the objective based missions.
Yeah, I saw a game with Tau vs Nids yesterday, it was nasty. He kept spawning Without Number gaunts next to objectives and contesting them every turn. I hope that gets nerfed. And man, barbed stranglers scare the piss out of me, they can decimate a guard's army to the man if the carnifex isn't taken out fast enough.
Our saving grace against them is they have absolutely no way to down AV 14 at range.
With that established there is a bigger issue we need to be addressing. IMO Tyranids, above all other armies, benefit most from the flanking rules. So, I think the biggest threats Guard players need to to look out for are: Hormaugants, Gargoyles, Termagants, Lictors, and Genestealers because once your gun-line has been swarmed and locked in CC you're finished. Simple solution, mech-up. There is nothing Tyranid players love more than a meaty stationary IG gunline to snack on. However, if you mechanize, Tyranid players have alot more trouble as they just can't bring the firepower to bear that they need to and don't have the capacity to penetrate your myriad tanks with their fast-moving line troops, (even when rolling penetration against rear armor). As your Chimeras whittle the swarm troops with Heavy Bolters and Heavy Flamers your Leman Russes and Demolishers knock out the big stuff, when it's relatively safe to disembark do so and finish them off.
Now, I have no experience fighting Tyranids with Imperial Guard. However, I did face Tyranids three times in 4th edition with a Mechanized Tau army and all those Devilfishes and Hammerheads were my saving grace. I'm not sure how the new vehicle rules will affect this approach and the Imperial Guard aren't exactly the Tau, but the above strategy is the best I can contribute.
Last edited by counterwavecounter; July 29th, 2008 at 00:42.
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