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I have played the Imperium's forces for over 6 years now, mostly inquisition, but never have seen a deathwing force played. Nor I have seen many smurfs or other marines lately, where I play the place is largely dominated by ork and chaos.
If anyone has more experience with marines than I do, are deathwing viable option for competitive play? Please elaborate on the subject of cons and pros with your own experiences.
1) They're troops - so score! hooray!
2) You want everyone in your army to have LD10 with those horrid assault morale modifiers right? well belial does it. compare his cost to a company master. and he gets lightning claws (most efficient use of his Init and WS, he's with a squad full of power fists if vehicles bother you) I digress - and has terminator armour and did i mention makes deathwing score.
3) Oh, and viciously nasty - you can add an apothecary. To your terminators. Ignore one failed save on your 2+ armour. Awsome.
4) Deep striking just got alot safer (It's not 400 points scattered to death)
5) Being fearless is a good, good thing in assault now.
I like them, but as extra clout to fistfulls of transported tac squads and venerable dread / anti infantry predator.
Mind you i've only done x5 games with the new rules, and haven't really tried the ravenwing properly in conjunction with them - My Land Raider hasn't been placed on a table yet either.
I agree that belial and a unit of terms can really kick ass as part of a DA army, especially if you take an apothecary.
However I believe that while the new DA codex greatly improved regular dark angels it has had a negative effect on 'pure' deathwing armies because I dont feel that having mixed squads makes up for the lack of squad size flexibility, dual heavy weapons and the old DA standards.
So what kind of Deathwing army were you planning to make?
a pure deathwing army or one with additional DA units.
While the latter list should have no trouble competitively, a pure deathwing army can become quite predictable if you play with the same group of people regularly.
Hope i could help a bit.
and good for you for considering deathwing btw
I was considering pure DW army, i think its a very cool idea to have an army of terminators marching, besides DW have awesome lore.. in fact DA have awesome lore overall.
About predictability its funny that my opponents know about my assassin by now, but with 5th edition its a huge boost to callidus.
Will new terminator squads have only one weapon or two, or will it be affected by the next vanilla codex.
I agree that deathwing fluff is very cool, one squad facing a horde of guys is so appealing in a cliched kind of way.
I would be very surprised if DW got two heavy weapons in the new sm codex i think their FAQ will hardly change them at all and that rather the sm codex will show some similarities to the da one such as combat squads and the overall layout of the book.
This raises an issue I have with the DA codex. In a white dwarf after the DA codex release Jervis Johnson talks about two main things, firstly making it easier to use special characters to lead your armies in games which is something I support fully (although I think it was unnecessary to remove asmodai and Naaman).
The second thing he talked about was enabling armies to play like their backgrounds. I think this also seems a good idea in theory but the example he gives is reducing the number of heavy weapons in terminator squads to 1 and limiting their size to 5. Now I am all for armies having great backgrounds because 40k fluff is wonderfully deep and interesting but when that background starts to have a negative impact on my army's effectiveness, I think that it has gone too far.
Unfortunately with the new DA codex my pure deathwing army was much more effective in the last edition.
O what I would not give to write the next DA FAQ
But 5th edition making troop squads key and making land raiders harder to kill gives deathwing some bonuses in some ways i suppose.
I hope this helps in some way or another
So why dark angels? I hear you say, and said so myself alot. I like the fluff, but is it really worth it to have a seriously underpowered army?
Is It underpowered is the real question.
- right now, it is poor if you tried to make a competitive list.
I think, with educated guesses that:
1) We'll be the only ones with the ability to make Terminators and bikes score. after playtesting it's rare they last until the end, to actually score, but my hordes of tac marines are ample to do that. However, you also get some neat tricks like the apothecary (He's Mean, mean, mean) and standard (Vanilla Terminators will be copies of the DA terminators. I think adding +1 attack to each of your crusader bourne terminators in a thunder hammer/claw squad will be gruesome, and how good it is underlined with the new codex)
2) With plasma being such a DA traditional weapon I think plasma cannons will be 20 for standard marine squads, and after rigorous playtesting boy, are they worth every penny.
- This is really a hunch, but that's what i'd price it at, especially in comparison to the other HW's. (I can't see plasma guns going up more than they are, i think they're a bit overpriced really.)
3) I really don't see them re-doing the DA codex. In fact i'd put money on it. I also, against wishfull thinking don't expect them to allow us to "slip in" the new Land Raiders / Scout Bikes etc. Maybe as we're such a old, tried and tested traditional chapter we wouldn't use these new "experimental" units. At very best what they'd do is bring out a book similar to "Apocalypse reloaded" with extra stuff for standard 40k, listing the bikes and New Land Raiders / any flier stuff from planet strike, (amongst the other race's stuff) and on the entry page it'll say "may be used by Vanilla Marines and Dark angels" - but that's a long shot, and some time to come. It would be extra sales for them though, which makes it plausible, but far, far away from in print.
When the vanilla marines lose their aurmory people will start looking at the characters and their equipment in detail. and stats. we'll have one of the best chaplains:
Look at the back of the 40k rulebook, in their summary page and marine chaplains have a WS and BS of 4. We don't. Didn't spot that didya? (this may be a typo and errata'd, but not so far, and no retraction or statement that that's wrong from JJ when quizzed on it)
p.s. the new marine tank will be a Leman russ Exterminator too - that's in there also.
The rumor I'm running under is that the new SM Terminators would be 5 or 10 men and can get up to 2 Heavys but must be at 10 man strength. Not sure if it can split up afterwards. Salt to taste
If you haven't decided yet, play DW!!! I love my DW so much and played them so well that I am actually missing loosing and going back to my Orkz friday when I go to the store
I have found the best list composition, for me atleast is 2 assaulty squads in a LR and LRC, and the rest shooty squads, and maybe a dread or two.
Marines are not getting a Leman Russ, that is a Space Wolf tank!
Arch Overfiend & Grand Despot
I currently play:
Doom Eagle Space Marines
Hive Fleet Omega Tyranids
Goff Ork Boyz(dead)
Tau of O'me
Inquisitorial Xeno Hunters
and my attempted foray into fantasy
'Dark Angel Green' Dark Elves in need of fluff
(As are marine scouts at WS and BS 3 - so they'll still be troops unlike DA elite scouts, chaplains at WS and BS 4, and some other revalations.)
P.S. i've realised what you were referring too as well, He Means Land Raider and Land Raider Crusader - Marines are still getting a Leman Russ Though.