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Just recently re-visited my old hobby after more than 4 years of absence (started playing back in the Rogue Trader days).
Been lurking around forums for countless hours now trying to get back "to buzz" on tactics and discussions.
Ive also picked up the spanking new 5th ed rulebook and the Daemonhunter codex (ofcourse) and started building my small force (gonna start with Combat Patrol style 400 points), project log over here: Inquisitor Truksons Forces (Plastic Stormtroopers, truescale Grey Knights and more!) - WarSeer
Anyways, one thing that ive started to think about is the ever popular "drive-by" squads of ISTs that alot of DH players tend to field.
Youve all seen it before, 5 stormtroopers with 2 meltas in a Rhino with Extra Armor and Smoke Launchers.
Well, these guys arent really changing alot in 5th edition (only thing i can notice is the lack of "vehicles becoming open-topped if troops in less than power armour use fire points" which is a buff if anything).
But what i was wondering was if any of you "mathammer" guys out there would even consider giving these guys Plasma guns instead?
The new Rapid Fire rules allows you to shoot twice up to 12", regardless of wether you moved or not. This would give the "drive-by" squad 4 str7 shots compared to 2 str 8 shots!
Granted, at ranges closer than 6", the meltaguns gives you the extra capability to kill tanks, and versus those really heavy guys (Land Raiders and Monoliths), the Plasma is utterly useless.
But at 6-12" range they pump out twice the number of shots at only 1 str less, more than able to cope with side armour on Leman Russes and also making the classic "drive-by" squad a pretty good MEQ-killer, seewing a few balls of molten plasma on them as they zoom past.
So what are your opinions?
Last edited by Trukson; August 13th, 2008 at 14:41.
I run up to four IST squads, I do however run them with 10 men in each squad, and put them in chimeras (I like a little more armor that is afforded by the cardboard plating of the rhino, plus a bit more firepower), but I usually run two squads w/ plasma, two with melta as each has thier own combat role. To apply this to your situation, you need to define the combat role of this particular squad, are they going to be strictly tank hunting(melta), or are they going to be heavy infantry/light vehichle killers(plasma).
Battlesuits, putting the BS in BullS*%t.
i was more curious to the theory overall of using plasmas vs meltas in a Rhino-mounted squad.
Im no "mathhammer" guy myself so cant be arsed to do the calculations (my ead urts!), but would be nice to see some numbers in different scenarios.
"...versus Land Raiders the "driveby" squad has 0% chance to hurt since str7 vs av14 = fail"
"versus side armour of Leman Russ 2 meltas will have a 55.678% chance of getting a damage roll while the plasmas with 4 shots only get 42.555%"
I mean, i KNOW that the Meltas are better versus Land Raiders and that the Plasmas are better against a MEQ-squad. But how are the greyscales turning out? How do the 2 units compare when facing a Leman Russ? a Devilfish? a Soulgrinder?
And ofcourse your overall thoughts on the subject. Remember that why i even brought this up is due to with 5th ed rules, plasmas can shoot twice even on the move!
Plasmas can shoot twice on the move ... but only if the vehicle moves at combat speed (6") or slower. So actually, in 5e, drive-bys a little more difficult to pull off.
On the other hand, you can drive up to cruising speed (12"), disembark the troopers, and then fire. It's silly to conceptualize (how is it that it's easier to drive faster/farther, get organized. disembark, and open fire than to just shoot out a window?), but them's the rules.
As for the utility of plasmas vs meltas: really, it totally depends on what you want to do with the army. If you're going to cover your anti-armour needs elsewhere (e.g., dreadnoughts, inducted IG, land raiders), then I'd go with plasmas because they're a bit more like what Grey Knights need to bring to the table. But anti-armour is always top of the list. That need must be filled first and foremost. Only after you have enough anti-armour solutions should you consider using plasmas.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
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big thing to remember that you are not factoring.
Even with two shots for the plasma to the 1 shot of the melta, it will only penetrate 12 armour, and glance 13, thus it is not worth it at all.
The meltas pen 13, glance 14, and that is just at normal range, at half range, it penetrates pretty much all armour.
As number6 said, it depends on what you want. If you have three squads of IST, I would run two of them with 6 guys and 2 meltas, and the third with 8 guys and 2 plasma.
Wow, I didn't look at that link originally, and yes I know people are like 'Geese, Goblin, you could have just edited your first post to include this information' BUT NO I COULDN'T!!! LIKE OMG!!
Ok, now that the cinematics are over, I needed to grab your attentions. At first, I wasn't paying attention to the link that he has in his first post. Upon reopening this and looking at that link, all I have to say is OMG!!!!
Those are freaking AMAZING, THE BEST, THE GRANDEST, THE MOST AWESOMEO IST conversions I have ever seen! Keep it up!!!
By the way, +rep for those sick conversions!
Means alot to me that one of the more active DH-community posters likes my work!
Anyways lets keep the modeeling&painting to that thread and the rules bitz here.
I am currently only running 400 points games, so atm i have no need for Meltas (never face AV14), but i definetly plan on fieldeing some when i increase my force (which wont be until 2009 i guess since i have alot of converting to do just to get my first stuff together).
I also have a bunch of Rhinos lying around at home from my old Marine forces so im absolutely gonna field a few squads of mounted ISTs.
What i wanted to discuss here is wether or not the usage of mounted Plasmas had been increased so much in 5th ed that they where worth to have.
From what i can gather from the posts so far, most people deem the DHs tank-hunting capabilities so low that they would arm their mounted ISTs with meltas almost no matter what?
If you are up against a 12 armor tank, you have a 67% chance of score a hit with the two meltas and a 90% chance of scoring a hit with four str 7 plasma.
Of course, I haven't had a game yet where at least one of my plasma guys didn't fry themselves, but I shoot them every turn I have and haven't tried the drive-by tactic yet.
I'd say go with the plasma because it gives you more shots and allows the squad to be a little more versitile, which is a huge advantage with 5th edition and not know which scenerio you're going to be playing.
Oh yeah - great models too. Everyone - click on the link in the original post.
Agreed -- those conversions are pretty slick =).
Regarding the question at hand, I think in this case the points-value at which the OP is playing dictates which weapon to use. While Meltas are definitely the preferred tank-hunting weapon normally, I wouldn't expect to see much that a plasma gun couldn't take out at 400 points, and against opponents that don't have any armor at all, the plasma gun is far more useful.
So, my two cents: go with the plasma. Stick them in a rhino, and see if you can pull off a drive-by. If not, use them as normal and just drive them up into rapid-fire range and disembark.
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Didn't realize it was only 400 pts.
I wouldnt invest in 1 melta IST drive by squad until 1000 pts. Even at 900 pts I wouldn't do meltas. But after 1000pts, depending on how you field your army, if you are using ISTs mainly, then I would use 1 melta squad for 1000pts, and then an extra melta squad for each 500 points afterwords.
Melta squads should be also kept to a minimum as best as possible.
I am talking only 6 guys, 2 meltas, no veterans, and a rhino with smoke only. I guess you could also go for the EA as well.