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So I decided to put two unit of stormtroopers into a 1500pt army I'm prepping for a an escalation tourney at the local games-workshop.
The first unit has 9 stormtrooper with 7 hellguns, 1 hellgun + hellpistol, 1 grenade launcher, and 1 plasmagun all with deepstrike.
The second unit has 6 Kaskrin stormtrooper models, 3 with hellguns, 1 helgun + hellpistol combo, 1 grenade launcher, and one flamer, all with deepstrike.
The special weapons are largely by default for want of models on hand.
Against these two units I pitted a similar point value of space marines, i.e. two squads of six marines, one squad with a flamer and the other with a plasma cannon, both with a sergeant with chainsword, bolt pistol combo.
I chose a standard scenario where the objective was to control an objective in the center of the table, open terrain.
The first strategy was to drop each stormtrooper squad rather close to one squad in the hopes of taking it out. If both squad didnt land together, the mission was doomed. Generally the sqauds would both kill about one or two space marines per turn. The plasma gun seemed to be the only weapon of merit for this deepstrike attack. Although the flamer was fun to use on occasion. After four trials the stormtroopers were still wiped out each time.
I then made the six man squad sergeant a veteran sergeant and added a power weapon. This was barely ever used and help rather little. Worse was that deepstriking behind one sqaud, the other enemy squad behind their other squad, the cover save for shooting through there own troops didnt matter because the unit would still get a 4+ save. Many times the plasma cannon would simply take out the whole squad the next round. It became apparant I simply could not deepstrike near the unit. (At least in this scenario.)
So realizing that rapid bolter fire would own stormtroopers every time, even with the advantage of first attack, I began to deploy them very far away, gradually moving forward. The grenande launchers became all the more useful (albeit inaccurate kraks.) The enemy still controlled the objective however.
So I decided to drop the six man squad for a seven man veteran squad, with two meltas and a plasma gun. Instead of deepstriking I would screen the veterans with the stormtroopers. This tactic enabled me to get both unit in 12" range without major casualties; the special weapons did there work well and the game was brought veryclose, both units failed there moral tests at one point and fell back. There were only 3 marines left.
Now I am tempted to drop the deep strike for the 9 man unit and switch the plasma with the other unit for another grenade launcher. (Howver the models are of different style and it pains me to do so.) Perhaps if the other unit deepstrike with a plasma flamer combo it would have done much better.
I find Stormies work best in big squads with two Plasma Guns. Leave the suicide squads (very effective IMO) to Vets as, like you mentioned, they get the three SWs instead of two.
Stormies are much better at holding an objectives and the plasma gives you the firepower and # of shots to be good at taking out either tanks (side or rear armor) or heavily armed troops. Hell, just drop these guys in some cover and let the enemy spend a lot of resources to kill them off or pay the price.
I usually kit them out with two plasmas and a Vet Sgt with PW.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
personally i find stormtroopers underpowered, take 1 stormtrooper squad, for x pts, and make a marine squad for the same amount of points, and the stormtrooper squad will lose 4 out of 5 games
the hellgun is severely lacking, and stormtroopers are not worth their cost(even if the models are amazing)
Hellhounds are good tanks
Satan - "**** you Kage! And **** you Jables! I'll get you Tenacious DDDDdddddddeeeeee!!!!!!"
I'm not too sure about that. Cross comparing units from different codices is a foolish means of measuring ability. These units are meant to work in conjunction with units from that codex. Sure they may be lacking in some aspects, but that's because they're meant to be used in conjunction with other units.
Let's take for example, the infamous min-max Storm Trooper squad with two plasma guns. 70 points.
A five man squad of Space Marines is 75 points.
While it's obvious that the basic Space Marine is superior in every way to the Storm Trooper, the difference is that the Storm Troopers have ablative wounds and two vastly superior weapons.
The Storm Trooper squad can take up to three casualties without a significant decrease in ability, but every Space Marine loss impacts its ability to do damage tremendously.
While Close Combat does negate such a difference, it still stands that the Storm Troopers will at least have a chance to annihilate the Space Marines before it comes to that.
What does this comparison prove? Nothing really. If you really want to compare, compare units in a codex. Besides, when the hell do you ever take a tactical squad for the Bolter? You don't take a Storm Trooper for the Hellgun.
The Storm Trooper is meant to act as a position taking firebase. Their equipment reflects that manner.
The Veterran squad is a suicide assault squad meant to either kill the foe in one go or die trying. Their equipment reflects that.
When using your Storm Troopers, treat them as opportunity takers. Identify objects of opportunity that the rest of your army cannot claim in time. Due to their decent leadership, armor save, and ballistic skill, you can expect them to hold on better than Veterans. This will give the rest of your army a chance to seize upon this opening your Storm Troopers have caused.
As Diggums said, leave suicide bombing to your Veterans. Storm Troopers cost too much to be used in this role.
Last edited by Sayomi Akimoto; August 20th, 2008 at 06:58. Reason: Grammatical modifcation for easier reading.
so you say dont compare units from different codexes............
how bout the comparison between sisters of battle, and inquisitorial stormtroopers...................for a 1 point difference, you get faith points, bolters, power armor, and a slightly better statline.
Hellhounds are good tanks
Satan - "**** you Kage! And **** you Jables! I'll get you Tenacious DDDDdddddddeeeeee!!!!!!"
Shouldn't have read the thread again, and now I feel like a fool for giving in. I suppose my will is weak...
So, we're comparing the difference between a Battle Sister and an Inquisitorial Storm trooper. While the sister of battle may be lauded as being the superior in terms of armament and stat-line, let's look at their prospective roles...
Unlike the Imperial Guard Storm Trooper, whose purpose is best exemplified as the objective taker/firebase, the Inquisitorial Storm Trooper takes the Veteran's role as suicide unit.
As a mainstay unit, the Sister is obviously better and far more suited for the objective of waging war and taking positions. Yet, unlike the Storm Trooper, the Sister is less flexible and far less expendable due to the variance in squad size.
Thus, the Storm Trooper squad makes an ideal throw away/fire and forget unit. As an anti-tank team, a squad of Sisters are ill suited for such a suicidal mission. Sure, their larger squad number increases the probability of survival, but for the most part any squad that plans on using melta weapons is expected to die. Yet again, its large squad size so close to the enemy instantly signals concentrated fire.
Should the squad accomplish its purpose whilst somehow managing to survive somewhat intact, the squad has difficulty engaging other units due the obvious differences in equipment. Seven to eight ablative wounds for a pair of guns that are very specialized in purpose. Not exactly efficient...
Storm Troopers also cover the one area Sisters lack: concentrated anti-meq and teq weaponry. Sure, acts of faith may be capable of doing the job as well, but you're relying on rolling quite a few sixes to cause those unsavable wounds. While statistically, with a couple of flamers and massed bolter fire, this is quite possible, it's not exceptionally reliable. In addition, once faith has been dried up by units that are more likely to require their use, such as Seraphim or the Cannoness, the squad is relying purely on overwhelming the statistical odds to win.
Also, despite the misconception, a Sisters squad is not faithful until the addition of a Veteran Sister Superior, further boosting the cost of a unit, that while exceptional in the battle line role, reduces the effectiveness of a suicide unit. Of course, it may provide an additional bump in faith, which you were expecting in the death of the squad, so there's a plus to it as well.
Thus, while at first glance the two units from the same codex might be horribly mispaired, they provide two different services:
Sisters of Battle are a line unit. They are expected to engage the enemy directly. Their default squad size, equipment and the flexibility of faith reflect this goal.
Storm Troopers are an inconspicuous kamikaze unit. They are expected to fulfill their goal and/or die trying while attempting to appear as harmless as possible. They provide a cheap, expendable form of anti-tank/anti-3+ save that will not be missed when lost.
Also, they're a viable replacement when the individual in question desires a radical Witch Hunters army and does not desire the presence of Sisters.
A Seraphim squad could probably do the tank hunting just as well for a similar or slightly higher price in exchange for flexibility, they aren't as sturdy as a squad of five storm troopers in a rhino. In addition, they are rather obvious targets; most players that have played against sisters know what Seraphim are, how deadly they are and how much of a loss they are to the army. That same squad of Storm Troopers with a rhino are inconspicuous in a mechanized sisters army, hiding amongst several other Rhinos. If the enemy has any idea of what is in the above mentioned rhinos, the storm troopers will probably be at the bottom of the list in terms of target priority.
And an Exorcist... Well, hell, it's a goddamn tank. A lot of flak will go its way and it does hurt when one dies. In addition, it covers the above mentioned role in the form of long support, but in a rather unreliable manner.
Thus, these two, while one obviously superior than the other at a minimal increase in cost, are capable of being used in a synergistic manner. It's like the plasma gun and the melta gun. One's for killing tanks, the other's for killing MEQ and TEQ. Can they do the other's job? Sure! Can they do it well? Not exactly.
Of course, most people probably wouldn't use Storm Troopers anyway simply because of the above mentioned obvious difference in ability between the two units, as well as the fact that they're not Sisters, clashing horribly with most people's Witch Hunter Army themes.
In truth, however, I do feel that the Sister of Battle is under costed, if anything if the point value of a Guardsman in Carapace armor is 8 and the value of a Storm Trooper is X. I feel that a one, maybe two point increase would be a more accurate description of their abilities.
I suppose it is rather funny when the elite of one army is quite literally the troops of another.
Bah, now this topic is ridiculously off topic.
So Wednesday night the stormtroopers saw action against the Tau.
The 9 man sqaud infiltrated, screening the 7 man vet sqaud. Given the enemy were all set up in skimmers, initially out of range. Most of the guard army had to deal with the horror of setting up, spread out in open terrain in a quarters/objectives game.
The 9 man squad got whittled down until there were only 3 left by 4th turn. During that time period the 7 man vet squad became exposed, were fired upon by some battle suits, failed there save, and ran off the board.
During 3rd turn the 6 man stormtrooper squad (flamer/grenade launcher) tried to deepstrike near some Kroot that had flanked on one side of the boad. The sqaud landing 9 inches away hower, putting them out of 12" range. Next turn the Kroot moved forward, blasted them to death, then a battlesuit, til only the flamer remained, who subsequently failed his morale check and fell off the board. (Not having a chance to flame the Kroot in revenge.)
4th turn the 3 remaining stormtroopers from the 1st sqaud moved towards a ruined building, aced one of two remaining firewarriors (I think thats what they were, that had marker-lights or something) with the grenade launcher, charged the building (using assault grenades, and gaining the initiative. However, they failed to kill the enemy warrior, and were instead locked in combat for four rounds, until top of the sixth turn the kroot moved in, assaulted, kill off the troopers, and consolidated four inches onto an objective marker.
Not having 'Iron Discipline' so as to gain the 'grenadiers' doctrine had minor effect. Only one unit during the game could have benefitted, which annoyingly fell back crazy far for three turns. (He stayed on the board, denying the enemy a kill-point I believe.)
Other notes: One basilisk did not have indirect fire, so it had to deal with 4+ skimmer cover save, being more than 12" away.
The basilisk with indirect fire was rock and roll. Totally killed some battlesuits and damaged a skimmer. The Tau player deepstrike a cheap battlesuit nearby and took it out, subsquently being murderously exploded by 7 charging roughriders. (Which went on to effectively engage, but lacklustery combat several fire warriors that next turn. At which point they only had a single close-combat weapons from my understanding.)
The demolisher was effective in drawing and sustaining enemy fire. The 12" save for the skimmer was also quite annoying. Also, it had mixed results with hitting targets.
Also, at one point a shot up unit of two gaurd, victoriously exploded a Tau rail-gun skimmer, by manouvering behind the vehicle and firing and hitting it with a melta-gun at less than six inches.
What i find is that storm troopers work well as troop choices with the doctrine your get i good troop choice that can be placed in a chimera and has access to a better gun, better save,assualt weapons,and uber cool minitures.
If Slaanesh is the god of the Perverse, why does Nurgle have all the filth?