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Last weekend I played against my faithful friend with his Blood Angel army, and considering he had kicked my fluffy tail several times in the past, I started paying a lot of attention to what he was rolling from each squad, then I saw something alarming....
Dante + 5man honour guard in the following configuration:
Standard Bearer + chapter standard
Marine with plasma gun
Shooting from this squad is as you would expect, pretty harsh with the plasma and Dante's 'perdition pistol'.
Close combat is where the real issue kicks in.
The honour guard squad has A2 in its standard profile. That, plus charging, plus the bonus from the chapter banner, gives 4attacks per model (plus Dante's 4 + banner bonus!). That’s acceptable, then my friend was adding an extra attack for each model with two close combat weapons, taking the squad attack total to 29on the charge (15power weapon hits!) instead of 25 (13PW hits).
Almost 30hits from a 6man squad which reduces BS and WS of my men by 1 when within 6" means that one squad walks through practically everything! That cannot be right!
I argued that this extra attack, although stated in the rule book, did not apply as he said, as other units with two CCW's and more than one attack in their profile didn’t get an extra attack - it was assumed the extra attack was added to the profile (otherwise Dante, Mephiston, etc just got an extra attack as well!!!) He argued that these particular squads were veterans, and a veteran sergeant would get an extra attack from two CCW's so why not these?
Worse still, a similar situation broke out with his 10man veteran squad who also have A2 in their profile, throwing up to 40close combat hits on the charge!
Could someone please clarify this issue? Do the BA veteran and honour guard units get an extra attack for two CCW's?
Also, how on earth would you go about killing a squad made up like this? Dante and his 5-man armada have been responsible for 80% of my army’s death each game no matter what configuration I try!
Hope someone out there can help!
Anyone can correct me if I am wrong, but the math goes like this
Say, 1 Vet Assault Marine charging with just chainsword and bolt pistol.
2A from stats + 1 for charging bonus + 1 for two close combat weapons = 4A on charge
So, a squad of 10 Vet Assault Marine all with bolt pistols and chainswords charging will pull out 40 attacks.
AndWhere did you get this from? Was it stated in the rule book? If so, why should I bother taking chainsowrd and bolt pistol if the extra attack was added to the profile, I'd just load my vet assault squad with guns. I don't know if Dante get a+1A bonus for two close combat weapons but you may want to take a close look at the rules.I argued that this extra attack, although stated in the rule book, did not apply as he said, as other units with two CCW's and more than one attack in their profile didn’t get an extra attack - it was assumed the extra attack was added to the profile (otherwise Dante, Mephiston, etc just got an extra attack as well!!!)
Last edited by K4neX; September 3rd, 2008 at 13:25.
The +1A for 2 CCWs is occassionally included in a Special Character's profile, but this is always pointed out clearly in the entry.
otherwise, as K4Nex pointed out, unless specifically stated otherwise, any model with 2 CCWs can claim the extra attack, regardless of how many Attacks are on their profile, whether or not they charged, etc.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC
sorry, but your friend wasn't doing anything wrong...
honour guard and vet assault squads all have terminator honours included on their profiles, hence the 2A base. and yes, they do indeed get +1A for having 2 CCW's!
now, as to how to stop an 'uberfied assault unit??! SHOOT IT!!! then shoot it again, and then finally shoot it even more untill it's gone...
plasma guns & cannons, krak rockets, lascannons, assault cannons are your friends. they all wound on a 2+ and they're either ap3 or better, or else they have 'rending'. also, with the S8/9 rockets/lascannons the apothecary's healing ability is also negated due to the shots inflicting 'instant death'.
remeber as well to use the new wound allocation rules - he can't just pick up a bunch of dice, roll his saves and then arbitrarily pick casulties anymore... make sure he's rolling for each model seperatly like you're supposed to now!
(ie: you shoot say 2 plasma cannons + 2 krak rockets from a devastator squad. you get a total of 6 plasma hits and 2 krak hits. thus, each model *must* take 1 cover save from the plasma. 1 additional plasma wound is allocated to any model in the squad. now the 2 S8/ap3 krak rocket hits are applied to 2 models as well! each model *must* roll their cover save independently as each is a different 'specialist'!)
sorry, but to me it seems that you're just upset that your mate has better assault troops than your do! well, they're Blood Angels!!! so basically you've got 2 options; suck it up and instead of crying foul that he's got lots of close combat attacks, learn some tactics to counter his assaulters... or else join him and adapt your own army to be brutal in close combat and see who's the real king of the hill!!!
honour guard can only be 5 strong. Shoot them before they assault you.
The only thing i wasnt enforcing was the new wound allocation rules. Perhaps forcing him to do this would stop him throwing half my wounds on models with the 2+saves....
As for shooting, that one squad took down two termie squads with ass cannons and cyclones, two devvie squads, one plasma cannons, the other missiles, and then walked through my command squad. Thats the usual case too.
I guess i'm just getting a tad sick of him using the same squad with the same moves on me, regardless of how i deploy my army.
Will see what happens next time i guess.
Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated!
it may be only the regular space marine chapter banner but i thought all it did was give you counter charge while still getting +1 attacks for charging? besides that your friend has it right.
No, in Dante's profile it says the Chapter Banner gives the whole unit +1A.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC
Wolf is right,
I've been over that PDF a thousand times trying to find fault in my mates play, and the only thing that keeps comming up is its me thats got the problem, and i need to find a way to combat it.
Pincer deployment, abuse of terrain and cover, plasma/melta spam, 20 sniper scouts, 3 devvie squads with 4 heavy bolters in each, nothing really cuts through that squad. I blame my horrid traitor dice, which roll trash for me and great for him all the time, lol..... (yea, now im just being stupid )