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Ok, so the title is weird, I know, but I wasn't sure how to title this...
Here is what I was doing today, I was reading my codex about 50 times over again... for the 10thousanth time... And I realized that Although talked about from time to time, no one really has yet to figure out which Veteran Sergeant for an IST squad is better, Witch hunters or daemonhunters...
I know in most cases, It would just be better to get a Elite =I= and equip him with a psycannon and throw him in with 2 plasmagun guys in an IST squad... however, what if your elite slots are already taken? Or maybe you just prefer the vet sergeant since he is not an Independant character.. Who knows what your reason is, but for now we will pretend that the elite =I= doesnt exist... Or at least for the purposes of this comparison.
I am going to go into a bit of detail as to what weapon options are available to each IST Vet... I am not going to list every possible thing, only the major things that would make a difference, and we will see which is overall cooler in terms of:
1. Who has better weapon options
2. Who is better at shooting?
3. Who is better at melee?
4. Who is better in a leadership role?
6. Any other thoughts or critisms..
Now, I know some of these points that we are going to look at , could be pointless, or redundant for each Vet... But hey, this is something interesting, and new, that no one has really done yet... (or at least not anything I have seen in the past)...
I wasn't sure which forum to put this in, thus, It is in the DH forum, cause I like DH more then WH... But WH is still cool!
So onto the comparison...
Firstly, both cost exactly the same points... Both squads have the same upgrades, stats, and transport options, so far completely equal. Infact, as I stated above, the only difference are the vets weapon loadout items...
So lets get started with the weapons available:
DH Vet IST:
-Lightning claws (1 or 2)
WH Vet IST:
-Cheaper Power weapon
-Bra of holy fire
Ok, so right away, I am seeing some things here.
1. Even though this is debatable, I am just going to come out and say it is a tie... The fact that WH gets a cheaper power weapon, evis, and rosarius, even though they are odd choices to give the guy, they are still pretty cool even with the lightning clause, thunderhammer, refractor feild and teleport homer. If anything, I would have to award the final weapon loadout to WH just for being able to give the IST 2 bras of holy fire... lol he gets the flamer, plus additional hand weapon, and can use the flamer twice... though this is not very competitive, but funny.
2.Shooting seems to be a moot point really. They both have pretty much the same selection of ranged weaponry... I would say neither excel here... Unless facing psychers, in which point, I award this to the WH Vet... As the combi stake crossbow seems quite fun against them... All be it, the psycher still gets his invulnerable save, which most come standard with an inv save... So again, they are pretty much completely even on point 2.
3.This is again tough... Against vehicles, hands down WH... They get Evisc... That is pretty awesome, especially even at str x that is standard for an IST, at the rear armour of a tank, with the benefits of an evics, that is pretty awesome indeed. Then again, the thunderhammer is no slouch either... Still though, melee against a tank, WH wins... But melee in general, is almost a no brainer... Lightning claws (reroll to wound when you have such a low strenth can be an awesome ability), and a power fist and a thunderhammer... in close combat against normal troops, thunderhammers, power fists, eviscerators... all do the same thing, so you cant compair those... The next thing is power weapons... For the price of the DH power weapon, it is like WH get theirs for a steal almost... Which when points start adding up, starts to put the DH in favour, but don't forget, the DH still has them, and the poins differnce of 5points in larger games can mean that this is a moot point too... Which will again, lead to the DH winning, as they get lightning claws... This isn't exactly the best option for this squad... But still definatly seems like in close combat, if kitted out right, the DH would own the WH squad, or at least own more enemies then the WH would...
4.Sadly this is another moot point... Almost... See, normally I would say that leadership mean, who has the higher leadership.. But What I mean here, is who can add more benefits to your army... And certainly, hands down, DH wins here. They get teleport homers... Come on down GKTs, you're buddies are keeping your seat warm for ya! Certainly they lead an army better then the WH ones, as the WH ones benefit the army very little.
5.Refractor Feild vs Rosarios... Ummm... Lol obviously WH wins here... Or not. Again DH seem to shine, as they have the Storm Sheild... which really is a lot better for an IST squad then the vet having either a refractor or rosarius.
6.Even though the roles are a little strange to be using IST in this way, it really comes down to who is better all around... Which we have to consider a few things more now:
a)Who is better at killing tanks
b)Who is better at killing infantry (including meq)
c)Who helps the army more.
And well, even though WH wins at the tank thing, because of the eviscerator, we still have thunderhammers, and against back armours of 10, we still got a good chance of destroying a tank. And against infantry, including MEQ, the lightning claws, or even the Storm Sheild seems to be better... And as for who helps the army more. The DH get teleport homers... The WH gets nothing like that...
I guess at the start of my post, I forgot to say, that I was actually considering allying WH IST troops into my DH main list haha... It seems strange, but I figured, hey, if WH IST can get better vet options then mine, then it is worth it.
In the end, none of this seems to matter if in your DH list you are using single character elite=I=... But if your not, and want some options for your IST, it is clear, that DH get better IST Vet upgrades than WH.
What do you guys think? I have talked my head off here, I'm going to go eat some ice cream.
No arguing with your well researched post!
I give it to WH, only because you can give your ISTs the free upgrade to Shotguns and the Evercerator is a nice option to add to a two Meltgun squad for tank hunting.
That is pretty well my favorite kit for ISTs, that or no Vet Sgt and two Plasma guns.
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
Diggums, I haven't seen you around in a little while!
Thanks for the fast response though! haha.
Glad to see someone else upgrades their Vets with eviscerators.
I have been playing some proxy games, using squads of 10 with 2 meltaguns and a Vet with Eviscerator... They have been doing alright considering I footslogg them.
It is either footslogg ISTs, and give their rhinos to the GK.... or just footslogg them all. Which is what I decided to do.
Now that the ISTs give the Grey Knights a 4+ cover save, I can't help it.... Not to mention the fact that If i kit out my ISTs, they are usually being shot first... Usually I try to keep my ISTs cheap.... But I have been experimenting lately with mixed results.
For 145 points, you can get 8 ISTS (2 with melta) and a vet with an Eviscerator. That is a 9 man screan for 145 points. I mean, we can probably just make it a normal 10 man screen with 10 guys for 100 points... But what about when they get to where they are going? At least, that was my thought when I was employing this tactic and realized that they kept ending up very close to the enemy at usually about 4-6 models strong... I realize that this isn't a HUGE deal... But still pretty good considering they are a 4+ armoured squad that is footslogging.
Anyways, So ya, I still have mixed feelings about all of it even though I have been testing it. Being that they are short ranged shooting, running them as much as possible is a good idea, even though it might take them away from the GKs...
But I mean, I guess we are all different. In the end though, the best kit I have found is the Eviscerator build, since it is just so versatile. Believe it or not, it has some staying power against other infantry as well, which makes it that much more worthwhile.