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  1. #1
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    are we now outgunned?

    right guys, iv been reading through threads 4 a while now, and hav come to the conclusion tht we are now generally speaking outgunned.

    If anyone has read the new Chaos Daemon codex:

    1. they will see tht they hav lost instability, which makes sum of our psychic powers redundant.

    2. all daemons hav the daemon special rule (inc. Fearless, all daemons deep-strike, and all hav the eternal warrior special rule)

    3. a bloodletter is 16 pts for a power weapon nd furious charge, nt 2 mention da rules above.

    4. hav a gift called "boon of mutation"- take a toughness test, if u fail, u go bye bye! no saves, and isnt instant death.

    How can we match this? we pay 25 points 4 only one GK, nd they pay 16 for a bloodletter!

    when you look at GK's abilities, they also aren't really that good against other armies, with no anti-tank, and few heavy weapons with low AP, oh and no dedicated transports 4 GK's.

    basically i think that we need 2 petition to GW to update our lists 2 do what we where made 2 do. give us more flexibility, new weapon options, maybe even some unique units!

    im sure many of this will disagree with my statement tht we are now outgunned, but i hope many can see tht this is true.

    i recon we shud hav eternal warrior, furious charge or fleet, nd definately more heavy weapons choices, oh nd a few more fast attack/heavy support options.

    Who agrees?


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  3. #2
    Senior Member Mad Cat's Avatar
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    951 (x8)

    Drop the text speek if you would be so kind.

    Anyway, the points you raise are valid but not insurmountable. I have used my standard 1500 GK list against daemon opponents and done quite well.

    BC + 4 Term, 1 psy cannon, 1 TH/SS
    10 PAGK
    10 PAGK
    8 PAGK
    8 IST, 2 plasma
    Dread TL AC
    Dread TL LC

    As you can see there is hardly any "anti daemon" stuff in there such as sacred incense or book of true names. The manouverability is the key to the army. When daemons deepstrike nearby you get the ability to move away 6" and fire 20 storm bolter shots at them. This is invaluable. Also remember that bloodletters still have to take dificult terrain tests to charge GKs so will attack at initiative 1 meaning 10 PAGK should kill 5 before they get to attack and if you thinned out the squad on the previous turn you should be fine.

    When fighting daemons deploy your army in a 18-24" zone in the center of the table for mutual support. Daemons love to deepstrike with half their army facing only a proportion of your force to reduce their casualtues before they can charge into combat. By supporting each other you get fire superiority against only half his force (on turn 1) and can even retreat while firing to get extra turns of shooting.

    If you think Grey Knights have a shortage of anti tank firepower (which they do) remember the daemons themselves have even less. If you can charge a unit of bloodletters with a dread then laugh as he spends the next few combat rounds scraping the paint off the thing with S4 power weapons.

    It will probably be 2-3 years before we get a new codex. In it I would like to see shrouding replaced by a 5+ Invulnerable save (from shooting only) or the stealth special rule. Our force weapons should work properly against daemons. The psy cannon could be made 2 shots per turn but AP3 or given a second firing mode like the blast master such as heavy 1 S8 Ap2.
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  4. #3
    Junior Member A.T.'s Avatar
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    430 (x8)

    Repeating some of the previous poster's sentiment

    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
    1. they will see tht they hav lost instability, which makes sum of our psychic powers redundant.
    Agreed, but the power is optional and it's no cost not to take it. (A GK's innate anti-demon stuff is balanced by the demonic infestation stuff - both are now gone, save for mass nurgling assault...)

    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
    2. all daemons hav the daemon special rule (inc. Fearless, all daemons deep-strike, and all hav the eternal warrior special rule)
    DH are pretty well equipped to beat up on deep strikers with mystics, and it's not a chaos-only thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
    3. a bloodletter is 16 pts for a power weapon nd furious charge, nt 2 mention da rules above.
    Striking at init 1 on the charge and sucking up a lot of firepower on the way in.

    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
    4. hav a gift called "boon of mutation"- take a toughness test, if u fail, u go bye bye! no saves, and isnt instant death.
    I'm not familiar with the rules. Do GK get their psychic save against it? What kind of range does it have? Is it expensive? Don't forget that a GK hero with retinue is a squad, not an IC - no sniping AFAIK.

    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
    How can we match this? we pay xx points 4 only one GK, nd they pay xx for a bloodletter!
    GK do get guns though, and the bloodletters would take a lot of NFW hits on the way in, if they manage to complete the charge.

    I'd have personally pointed to the increasing numbers of mass AP 3 fire available to the new codex forces (inferno bolts, sternguard ammo, LR redeemers, etc), increased mobility, enhanced psychic powers, and decreasing costs (free equip for SMs for instance) - these are things that the GK codex wasn't really written with any easy counter to.
    No need to mix up their playstyle with SM perks - instead just bring their existing stuff up to scratch
    - make shrouding more than a token protection
    - make some form of GK teleportation a viable option in the troop-heavy 5th ed
    - update the GK's psychic powers and protections, they are a little dated with too much risk for too little reward. Squad-based powers (such as the old 2nd ed teleport) would be fantastic.
    - fold some of their optional gear into the basic squad make-up (much like the SM's free special weapons in squads of 10, or chapter master's free orbital strike). Like all squads of 10 get free sacred incense, or sensible pricing on squad-wide psybolts (does anyone ever buy those?), or a free daemonhammer instead of a thunderhammer if the terminator weapon swap is taken for a GM or BC.

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    sorry, i don't know how 2 use quotes, but boon of mutation is a ranged weapon fired within 6" (so shrouding useless) and can be fired INTO AND OUT OF COMBAT, it says to pick one enemy model within 6", so lik a vindicare, can single out models (bye bye GM), oh and it also turns dead models into spawn.....

    looking at it it is awesome! and for what it is VERY cheap (nearly a quarter of a vindicare points cost)




    ok then, if we aren't resupplied with new unit types and weaponry, how about removing some of the restrictions of using space marine type units with GK's? eg. devastators or whirlwinds and their other tanks? i know many people may think play space marines then, but it removes the headache of creating new balanced units......
    till the end i stand, no retreat! no surrender! *woop woop*

    "Innocence proves nothing"

  6. #5
    Senior Member Mad Cat's Avatar
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    951 (x8)

    boon of mutation has a short range and has to:
    1. Get cast with a psychic test
    2. Get past our psichic hood or aegis ability
    3. Have the victim fail a toughness test.
    So the first condition is usually 92% and about 60% for the second condition and only 33% chance for the third condition against a T4 GK. It makes a 10-15% chance of loosing one model and for grey knights unless this is an expensive grand master it certainly isn't much of a threat.


    If you play space marine armies you can easily bring in 1000 points of grey knights to add to your space marine stuff with the new rules. eg.

    HQ: BC + retinue
    Elites: GK terminators
    Troops: 2x10 PAGK
    Fast: 10 FAGK

    Then you need to fill 2 troops and an HQ from the space marine army list and the rest is up to you.
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  7. #6
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    Mad cat, u said that:

    boon of mutation has to:
    a) Get cast with a psychic test
    b) Get past our psychic hood or aegis ability

    sorry no psychic hood or aegis, its a ranged weapon, not a psychic one

    to be honest i havent seen the new space marine codex, but correct me if i'm wrong when i say: "if you try and ally GK's to a space marine parent list, the rule in the DH codex will come into play, tht you can't ally them together." (pg. 30 DH codex)
    Last edited by eclipse; October 24th, 2008 at 17:04.
    till the end i stand, no retreat! no surrender! *woop woop*

    "Innocence proves nothing"

  8. #7
    Senior Member Mad Cat's Avatar
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    951 (x8)

    If Daemonhunters induct marines then you cannot use GKs, but if marines ally with GKs then you can use them together. In the colour section of the DH codex there is even a sample army of some crimson fists (I think) including a single unit of GK termies.

    I'll have to check the wording of psi hood and aegis. I thought it said something like "works against a psi power that effects us". If that is a ranged weapon or not it still is a psi ranged weapon requiring a psi test.

    On the other hand there are 2 boon of mutation type powers in the game. Codex CSMs have a power that is very similar to boon of mutation called gift of chaos. I think we may get our defences against the CSM version but not the codex daemons version as daemons don't actually have any psi powers.
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  9. #8
    PP is my master now... Hasten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
    sorry no psychic hood or aegis, its a ranged weapon, not a psychic one
    Sadly true, and totally odd, in my opinion. All 'psychic' type of powers are actually shooting attacks in the new Chaos Daemons codex. They don't take a psychic test, and are treated as if they were shooting attacks. Therefore the Aegis and Psychic hoods have no effect.

    Now, thankfully Boon of Mutation does suffer from some pretty severe limitations. First off, it's an expensive choice -- the same cost as purchasing a psycannon from our armory, in fact. Secondly, there is the previously-mentioned extremely short range. Thirdly, it's only available on Tzeentch HQs (So Heralds and Lords of Change), so it's competing with all the other delicious Daemon HQs, and the most anyone could have in an army is 4 (two pairs of Tzeentch Heralds), and they would be forgoeing a lot of other nasty choices to get these. Lastly, it's also competing for upgrade space with other awesome powers in the CD codex, such as Breath of Chaos and Bolt of Tzeentch. The Bolt represents one of the only ranged anti-tank powers in the Daemon Codex, and it too is quite expensive. So all that to say, I don't think that Boon of Mutation is really the heart of our problems.

    Actually, if you want to talk about potentially over-powered powers in their codex, Breath of Chaos seems much worse to me. It's a template attack with a 50% chance of wounding regardless of toughness, and ignores armor and cover saves. So as a Daemon player, if I've got a model inside of 6", I think I'd rather be throwing down with Breath of Chaos, personally. It's also much more readily available: both Tzeentch and Nurgle Heralds and Greater Daemons can get it, as can the Heavy Support choice Daemon Princes. They even have an Elite choice that acts as Jump Infantry and each model gets Breath of Chaos. So yeah, that seems to me to be a much nastier close-range power.

    Not that I'd turn down an update, of course! I agree with you completely that we're in dire need of some GW attention.

    Just my two cents, of course =).

    -H
    Last edited by Hasten; October 24th, 2008 at 18:28.
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  10. #9
    LO's Resident Time Lord Canew's Avatar
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    457 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
    Mad cat, u said that:

    boon of mutation has to:
    a) Get cast with a psychic test
    b) Get past our psychic hood or aegis ability

    sorry no psychic hood or aegis, its a ranged weapon, not a psychic one

    to be honest i havent seen the new space marine codex, but correct me if i'm wrong when i say: "if you try and ally GK's to a space marine parent list, the rule in the DH codex will come into play, tht you can't ally them together." (pg. 30 DH codex)
    Eclipse:

    Please do not use "u" or "tht" in your posts, or "2" when you mean "two," "4" when you mean "four," or "hav" when you mean to say "have." Chatspeak is not allowed here, and we expect as proper grammar and spelling as you can provide. Please edit your posts to comply with forum rules. I can do it for you, but then I'd get... angry.
    Last edited by Canew; October 24th, 2008 at 19:55.
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  11. #10
    Nightlord frozencore's Avatar
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    255 (x6)

    Don't forget that eternal warrior doesn't men squad to our Force Weapons. Daemon armies come in piecemeal so mobile GK shooting will tear them up as they arrive. We don't get any bonus for charging, so have them charge us. We get to strike first and with s6 weapons we will easily wound and kill a vast majority of their unit. If psykers are really that scary take a WH inquisitor with hammer of the witches, it essentially gives d6 wounds on enemy psykers per turn.

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