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While im not trying to complain about the BA codex (theres already a post for that elsewhere im guessing) and I realise that there are some armies that desperately need a new one before us BA players, I am a bit annoyed about one thing. Has anyone else noticed that a Blood Angels unique unit suddenly appeared for all to use in the new SM dex? It was almost the first thing I noticed when i looked at the new codex, that and the close combat oriented ironclad dreadnought. Just giving them new names does not make them different units. Vanguard vets are veteran assault squads, a unit which only used to exist for BA. And they are a better, more updated version of them. Heroic intervention anyone? Simply making assault squads into troops choices does not make up for the yoinking and then upgrading of one of our units, especially as scouts got bumped out to elites. Grrr.....
Even though your point may be true on a certain level, there are slight differences between the two units.
Blood Angels Veteran Squad.
- Bolters (if you don't reach that assault target, you can always blast 'em away with rapid fire potentially 24" in range)
- The choice of more balanced weapons such as combi-weapons and storm bolters for a more mobile medium fire range force, less dedicated to overkill assault.
- 10 points cheaper than an SM Vanguard each which then turns to 5 points less for the last 5 last vanguards.
- The added Death company model included in the cost.
- Special weapons, which can be essential.
So you can see the Vanguard aren't the end all of veteran assault squads, in fact I prefer the BA version over the Vanguards as the Vanguards seem too expensive to me and teethe too far into the assault overkill column which usually means deep striking too early and outright killing the target squad ending up in open ground to be fired upon with ease and no cover. I like to call this a "5th edition situation". (this is IF you don't scatter badly or even lightly as per the small 6" charge range).
Hope this makes sense. =)
Originally Posted by swntzu
I've got enough with a close friend of mine crying every time I pull out my shiny new codex in front of his Blood Angel army.
First off, let me just ask why you feel your free-to-download codex should affect what units are in the codex the rest of us pay good money for?
Look, you might think "oh my god, SMurfs get our special units" but lets really face facts here. The BA codex is a free, stand alone 'dex that for ages now has had special units the rest of us vanilla players never got a sniff at. Furioso? Death Co.? Honour Guard with jump packs? Baal Pred? In fact BA has more special characters than any other chapter to the best of my knowledge. How on earth can you sit there and actually moan that we get a version of a BA unit when it’s overpriced and overrated? The hole in the wallets of thousands of marine players who bought the codex is real enough to say "stop moaning"....
Whether Ironclad is a rip of Furioso or not, it doesn’t matter, we pay 35points more for the privilege. You should sit there and laugh saying "mine's cheaper and does pretty much the same thing".
Whether Vanguards are a rip of Vet Assault Squads does not matter, we pay 25points more for a stock squad with the same war-gear - yes, they get heroic intervention that is only usable once per game! I'd rather not risk a 175point+ unit on a move that's as likely to kill the unit as it is kill the enemy (deep-strike scatter onto enemy unit?)
Honour Guard? Vanilla guard might share the same name, but there is no comparison here. Stock Honour Guard cannot take jump packs, get artificer armour and power weapons where BA get a whole load of upgrades and special characters like tech priests, apothecaries and what not.
Your scouts may very well be elite choices, but vanilla scouts have a lower BS/WS.
I do sincerely apologise if I come across rude or harsh, but I really do get this in the neck far too often to hold any sympathies.
Please do not post unit stats -- Canew
Last edited by Canew; October 29th, 2008 at 15:46.
Hey... I paid a good 21.90 Aus$ so to get this codex, with some who paid half that by only getting the second issue.
His complaint is not about money and it should never be in a game environment Imo...
Imagine the next let's say... Tyranid codex coming out with what would be an exact replica of the space marine codex but everything being half the points, now this may be a totally different codex in 'look', but obvious statistic unbalances will be apparent.
This example may be extreme but you can predict the outrage from the SM players if it was to happen and the glee of tyranid players.
Originally Posted by swntzu
But we're not talking about statistical balances though, we're talking about a codex with a price tag 'stealing' units from a codex that is free to download.
I'll never throw my teddy out of the cot over the opponent using a free-issue codex, infact I recomend new players to go for the free codex, as its one less expense to help new players into the game! What i wont be happy with is both BA veteran players and newbie players complaining that a (now)month old codex has violated their sacred PDF!
GW do their very best to ensure each new codex release is not only written in legible english (which is more than can be said for my posts here!), but balanced with every other codex available and balanced with the old codex, as failure to prove balance between the two codex versions would highlight that one or the other was unbalanced in some way!
This further proves that the slowly aging BA codex is still balanced, still a capable fighting force and still kicks my RG-Successor's arse twice a month.
Yes, the new codex may have 'ripped off' some BA-unique units, but why is this reason to moan? I would only condone moaning of this sort if the 'ripped-off' unit was better, harder and cheaper than the origional, which in this case it is not on all three counts.
Again, I really do apologise for being a tad harsh, it's just a subject that bugs me.
PS. Canew, cheers for jumping on my mistake so fast. I got lost in the moment of the rant and fecked-up. Sorry!
Your exactly right CleanRabbit, this post was never about statistical balances. I'm not trying to compare the two units, or honour guard units, or dreadnoughts in terms of their gameplay or point values, only in terms of their appropriateness in each army. The point I'm trying to make here is that when you take a unique unit and make it available across the board, there is much less that is unique about playing with that army, in this case blood angels.
Most people would create an army not for it's gameplay strengths but because it has a certain character, something that defines it as different to their mates armies. No one wants to play a game against an opponent with exactly the same force as their own, and this is no different. What I am complaining about, and i think i have every right, is that an army i have loved for years is becoming less appealing, less different and less exciting to play because the units that made it so interesting to me are now becoming commonplace. I can hardly make you read this post, it was quite obvious from the title as to its intent, so i dont see how my complaining could have any effect on you if you did not want to read it.
The post was also not about the price of the codices, money was never the issue i was trying to bring up, if it was i would hardly have bought the new SM dex just for the interest i have in 40K. Still, i do have to re-iterate Handbag of Joys point, most BA players would have bought the codex as two White Dwarfs only for it to come out later as a PDF. While it may be free for new players, those that were playing as the codex came out would certainly have paid for it, i know i did.
If the Raven Guard had their own standalone codex and units/rules like the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, or Space Wolves codices, I would be ecstatic and I would use it exclusively. Lucky for me, I don't have that option, so I have to rely on the Space Marines codex to adapt an overwhelmingly Utlramarines-like army list into a Raven Guard list. In 4th edition, nobody with a standalone codex complained about their list; suddenly the list gets an expected update and everyone's crying.
Vanguard Veterans = Veteran Assault Squads? Fair enough, do it in the reverse. Veteran Assault Squads = Vanguard Veterans, Furioso = Ironclad, voila, you now can play Blood Angels using the vanilla codex.
Bottom line is that Blood Angels are Space Marines. There will be units that are nearly identical, it's a fact. Why should it matter if they get something that's similar to something you have? You aren't losing it, so it shouldn't phase you. You still get things like Death Company, Baal Predators, Assault Marines as Troops, more skilled Scouts, Honour Guard with Jump Packs, and several fantastic special characters.
If anyone, I think Dark Angels and Space Wolves have more room to complain about their codices than you do.
Besides, I'm not jealous on Vanilla players who can field the Vanguard Veterans now (which I would do just for the fluff despite the risks, BTW). However, I'm not really happy with those Vanilla players who try to belittle my Blood Angels by calling them obsolete. They claim to have everything I have at cheaper point costs, so that's why they think their Marines are automatically superior. It's easy: I'm not jealous of the new and excellent Vanilla Codex, so don't try to make me feel bad for my love for the fluffy yet outdated BA Codex.I have created a Blood Angels list using the new Vanilla Codex which allows me to additionally stuff in a fully equipped Captain and 6 additional Assault Marines at 1'500 points while the rest of the army stays the same. That's an impressive difference, but it doesn't feel right. Putting the Death Company into a regular Assault Squad slot makes my heart bleed.Originally Posted by Lost NemesisThat's right. I believe that the similarities between the various Space Marines Chapters outweigh the differences by far. It makes sense to have similar troops across all Chapters and it takes a lot of subtleness to model the diversity. I think GW has done a great job so far.Originally Posted by Lost NemesisDefinitely true, but I wouldn't be unhappy if we got an update pretty soon as well.Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
"Fear not and look up to the sky for salvation, for we have entered orbit."
Blood Angels 2nd Grail Guard Company