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Surprise surprise, another "vs" thread! So, what I am wondering, in the humble opinion of the LO community, is the value of Vanguard Vets (with Jumppacks!) against Assault marines! In my list I have a few tac squads, somne armour, and some termies (generic). I want to add some Jump-packers as a just in case assault squad, and so back to the originally question...
Just to add in some assault-equipped troopers, are Vanguard worth the cost or should I grab basic assault marines? And why, o' course!
How many points are you playing? 1500 + you could take vanguard. They have an amazing amount of attacks, and great weapon options. For anything less i go assault marines. For the cost of vanguard you could take almost two regular assault squads depending on the load outs.
Haven't tried the vanguard yet but I want to, although I'll most likely keep them pretty basic with maybe only one or two special weapons.
I have tried 2 units of assault vets with a power fist, this combined with a legion of damned squad and that's a lot of deepstriking threats!
I used to be really against assault marines, I thought they were too expensive and tended to be suicide units. But now that they are so much cheaper it works!
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EDIT (Phrased kinda incorrectly) As far as points go, this squad would be generally added in AFTER 1250pts of other stuff.
Since they are designed for the same role, I'm curious as to if the output of the Vanguards makes up for the almost double cost. I would only be adding one of either squad (for now). I know it really is a tough assessment with using them as a broad unit (rather than saying "I want an assault squad to kill enemy Orks. Go.), but thanks for any input!
Last edited by VTSvsAlucard; October 29th, 2008 at 20:44. Reason: Re-phrasing
That is the problem, wanting to know what's best all round. The Vanguard give you some specific benefits, their deepstrike and attack ability, an extra attack and access to some cool power weapons.
I think in the majority of cases 10 assault marines is more than sufficient. They churn out 31 attacks with a decent ws and s. Thats enough to win the combat and finish off a lot of units, more is just overkill. The vets are no more survivable, they don't have any initiative bonus, better armor or an invulnerable save.
However, if you were pretty sure you were going up against a squad that needed lots of hits to take it down, something like orks I suppose, then un upgraded vets would be a good bet. If you know there are going to be some power armored units on the field that could do with a whole squad of power weapons then the vets become an even more interesting proposition, but soo expensive you have to be really sure they'd make their points back.
I think if you want a broad units that can do almost everything as well as you want, and can have a decent stab at the rest I'd go for the normal assault marines and a power weapon for the sarg (would always spend the extra points on some assault equipped scouts to back them up ).
Vanguard veterans are like grey knights. They look cool on paper, they are usable, but you have general better choices in your army. They are overpriced for reaons they were created so you want try to find ways how to use them because its new on paper cool looking unit. So they sometise prove their good in your battles and you post topics about how good they are, but on long term run, they are not univeraly good as another expansive units like stern guards, TH/SS termies etc.
Vanguard would be good in next edition codex, if:
- have scatter reroll in heroic intervention rule
- have jump packs for half price
- have cheaper additional weapons
Last edited by czechImenhotep; March 15th, 2009 at 14:14.
Vanguard are crap.
They're stupidly expensive, have a risky gimmicky ability, only have WS4 W1 and a 3+ save, and are stupidly expensive. They drop in, murder a unit (provided they don't scatter) and get caught in the open with their pants down. They die as easily as normal marines so they get wiped. So much for a 300 point unit.
Assault Marines are superior. You can get 20 for the price of those Vanguard, they get 2 flamers and a powerfist to go along with them. Cheap, burny, and plenty hitty in assault. Plus they benefit from a Chaplain joining, Vanguard do not (Heroic Intervention ftl!).
Assault Terminators and Command Squads trump all though, being reasonably priced, dead killy, and hard to put down.
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The fact that it costs 175 for 5 of them with jump packs in their standard wargear is a huge turn off. Honestly, I bought some thinking they would be great with their power weapons and all, but the costs are somewhat insane. If you are using them, you should focus major pieces of your list around them (like including Shrike as an HQ so they get extra assault range, which is crucial considering they cost too much to be placed in firing lanes) and maybe give them a jump pack chaplain so they can reroll hits.
Personally I'd also take Lightning claws on most. That way, you can jump in there, reroll hits and wounds with basically everyone.
However, with five of them, the costs of having all that would be more than the maximum possible assault marines cost with ten of them. In the end, it depends how many points you have to devote. If you have 500 or so points lying around, go for Vanguards. But be careful, the reason I said to have Shrike is that the more mobile they are the better. If they get caught in the middle of the field, even once, they can easily get shot down, and there go a ton of points.
And as was said above, this is assuming you just march them accross the field and don't use Heroic Intervention.
One other combination that might provide some help might be Tigurus + Vanguards arriving via Deep Strike. You can reroll the result, so you can sometimes hold them back longer. Provided you have reasonable forces on the ground doing work, you might scatter enemies enough that you can pick off units once you drop in without worrying about enemies being too close.
Regardless, if I was running Vanguards, I would march them accross the field with a Chaplain and Shrike, along with Lightning claws. That's incredibly expensive, but if you're lucky (and you avoid fire lanes) you can have a solid anti-infantry run. You could give one or two powerfists if you want more anti-vehicle.
Overall, I'd go with Assault marines, as they are cheaper for more, and you can still slap a Chaplain on them. Since each dies equally easy, its probably better to opt for the greater number of units.
I'm building a Templars army under the SM codex and I'm planning on using an assault squad and a vanguard squad both in rhinos. I have yet to test it, so I don't know how it will turn out, but I had intended to use a chaplain with each squad or maybe Khan. That being said, I think if you keep vanguards lean, they can easily be worth the cost. My squad would have a relic blade, a fist and two power weapons and be 8-10 strong depending on points.
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I don't know why no one mentions it but Vangaurd *without* jumpacks could actualy be good as long as you give them a transport, and certainly much better costed, especialy for an interesting Rhino heavy list in case you don't have enough from your tactical squads. Plus it would give a cool squad for my foot slogging chaplain.
Then again, command squads have an apothecary, which makes them better. But too bad the max squad size is 5.
But ya, looking at jumpacks, I'd much wrather have Assault marines. I prefer having more bodies in my list then fancy (fail) rules.