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Ive found myself messing around with a few DH army lists as of late, but the same question seems to pop up at the end of every one: do I have enough ranged Anti-Tank. Being the robust peices of work that they now are in 5th edition, and considering our restricted choices in AT material as it is, I was wondering what is enough to get the job done in most situations. (Im fine at close range. PAGK with melta-bombs can take down any tank in combat.)
As far as I can see, a dread with TLLC and ML is the most common build, but it also sounds like you would need 2 or 3 of them to play things safe. The other options seem the LR (which looks like the most solid build), LRC (multimelta, anyone?), or IST with meltas (a bit 'suicidal' for my tastes).
I appreciate this is probably a silly question, but what harm in asking the community, right?
All advice is greatly appreciated.
Last edited by xBlackHawk1x; December 2nd, 2008 at 10:43.
Im in a similar situation.
Its really hard to know when you have "enough" AT firepower. ATM im only playing smaller battles (Combat Patrols) but around christmas im going to try out bigger battles so ill see where i end up.
Just wanted to mention one way to get AT firepower in your army that you didnt mention:
Inducted Imperial Guard.
Seriously, dont laugh! For 160 pts (without gear) you get 25 Troop bodies that you can leave at "home" guarding any objectives you have in your zone. On top of that you can buy them 3 heavy weapons and between up to 6 special weapons! Just be careful not to overequip them though, since without support they are an easy prey for any Deep Striking/Outflanking enemy asssault units.
My personal rule of thumb is to always field at least three anti-armour capable units. That gives me what seems to be enough redundancey, reliability and power without sacrificing too much of what I really love: Grey Knights!
My usual loadout to satisfy these requirement are a pair of TLLC/ML dreads and an 8-model unit of Seraphim, 2x inferno pistols and a vet with an eviscerator. All three units are very mobile, and the Seraphim have the added bonus of being one of the most tactically flexible units in all of 40K. While their first order of business is hunting armour, they're just as good taking out infantry, especially heavy infantry.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
I too like to use Seraphim or Landraiders. With the new POMS rules, Landraider became very worth their points. My current 'power' list is two LRCs and one LRC, and seems to work very well. The LRC get my troops close if need be and are both good at AT and anti-troop. The regular LR is there to take out the heaviest tanks right from the beginning whilst holding 10 of the Emperor's finest troops to capture objectives etc.
We also got a nice boost with 5th ed with the anti tank issue, because we now always hit rear armor. Nothing like 10 Knights popping out of LR and getting 21 S6 hits on rear armor! Oh, I'm so sorry Mr Leman Russ!!!!!!
"A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril."
Sir Winston Churchil
Under the Imperial Armour 2 rules, I am finding it attractive to use a Drop pod multi melta GK dreadnought.
Lascannons don't usually do the trick again AV 13+ armor because I will still need a 5 on the penetration chart. So their definately good against transports. Anway the lifespan of a Land Raider is enough for it to become viable.
I also add Hammerhand on my GM.
LRC multi melta as mentioned.
I think GK dreadnoughts might be used a bit more with Drop pods, because they can get into CC a bit better, i.e. DS, run into cover, smokes.
I might write like a ork but i fight like a poet.
Some one tell me they have ever seen a nightbringer die from a Nemesis Force Weapon.
Part of giving advice is making sure you note that this advice would be used for friendly games or tourney. When someone is asking for advice on what to take, giving them options from a book which does not over write our codex, and thus is not valid options unless the games are friendly, apocalypse, or agreed upon with the game masters ahead of time, is kinda pointless.
Lascannons work against 13+ armour, well enough that they need to compared to other options. I see your point with land raiders, they rock. Also on the note of land raiders, Ready4anything, you are wrong. They DO have machine spirit. Read the LEGAL faq on the matter: YAY FOR MACHINE SPIRIT. When fifth came out, it is true that we couldn't fire both lascannons on the move.... now... we can flipping fire 1 lascannon after moving 12 inches! HOLLY JESUS I LOVE IT! So your love of the land raider, as I have always had, and was temporarily shaken by fifth edition, which is restored by the FAQ, is now shared by me. A land raider is a good suggestion.
Hammerhand is truely useless imo. Some people like it for tank busting, which is about its only use on a GKGM. generally speaking, a melta bomb will be just as good, and is half the points. Also, tank hunting... is the LAST thing I would do with my TKGM.
LRC does rock. and remember, with machine spirit, you can move 12 inches, and fire the sucker.... yup, that is a rock solid 36inch range multimelta... NICE!
Grey knight dreadnoughts dont get drop pods. Our codex is not AI2! And as stated above, for omg sakes man! FLUFF! LOL... Grey Knights don't leave any trace of themselves behind when they leave after obliterating the opponent... You know how hard it is to dig drop pods out of the ground after they have come barreling down from the sky faster then a bullet? lol I would assume too time consuming to make a fast get away so no one knows they are gone.... Fluff be damned though, I do wish I could give my dreadnoughts a drop pod. But, not in our codex, thus, throw it out the window unless it is a friendly game, or allowed by the Game Master to use AI2 rules, which CAN fly in some tourneys, but from my understanding, few and far between.
Image man, you're a cool guy, and you rock on these forums, but I must admit, lately it just seems like you're swinging around the AI2 rules like a hammer that will fix all of our codex's problems... (which it does fix some)... But dude, they are forge world rules... not our Codex's rules. And when designing an army, you use your codex. The only time I use forge world rules, is when im using a Titan or some kinda flying vehicle in my lists for fun. Or apocalypse.
But yah, now that I re-read the Machine Spirit rules.. I am rather loving the Land Raider far far more then I thought possible... YAY!
Hope this helps, and I am not trying to start a argument Image, just man, if you are going to contribute and use the IA2, let people know that they are not official codex rules. Also some people have no idea what Imperial Armour 2 is, or where they get it from.
Sorry you took it that way Goblin, I never said they didn't have a machine spirit, it's just not BS3 like the new SM ones, isn't it still BS2?
First, according to RAW before the latest FAQ was released, GK Land Raiders and Crusaders did not have machine spirits at all (a stupid omission by GW, but an omission nonetheless).
Second, the new SM machine spirit is not BS3. The shot provided by the 4th ed. machine spirit was specially set at a reduced BS of 2 (and could only be used when moving <6"), but the new machine spirit has no such clause and is therefore used at the vehicle's normal BS.
Third, check the wording of the 5th ed. Daemonhunters FAQ - you'll find the machine spirit given to GKLRs and GKLRCs is identical to the SM one (we actually got it before they did!), so it fires at full BS.
Now, to get back on topic...
The question is a pretty subjective one, but I'd have to say you can't beat a Land Raider for reliable AT firepower. It's cheaper than two fire-support (TLLC/ML) Dreadnoughts, but more survivable (though Dreads seem to live a lot longer under 5th ed. rules). It doesn't have quite as much firepower as 2 Dreads, but I never considered the ML a particularly good AT weapon anyway - I think the TLHB, transport capacity, and better armour easily make up for a couple of MLs.
I absolutely agree with Goblin, the new machine spirit is awesome and our Land Raiders are fantastic because of it. GK Crusaders are now frighteningly good fun with the combination of 5th ed. rules, the new machine spirit, and RAW hurricane bolters...
Last edited by Defensor Fidei; December 3rd, 2008 at 06:06.
Commanding Grey Knights since 2003.
See my army: The Order of the Triune Crusade
How do I know when I have too much AT? When I can't kill everything else at satisfactory ratios.
To that end I either ensure I use at most 30-35% of my points on pure anti-tank or I take anti-tank units that can fulfill the role of killing normal things.
Thus, I present the humble MM/DCCW Dreadnought with the complementary incinerator! Great against everything! With skillful use in multiples of three they can kill tanks whilst simultaneously endangering all other life on the field!
Sure, it's not long ranged, but I tend to keep my Grey Knights hugging cover like... Well a guy that likes hiding behind walls. I play on mild to high terrain boards, so I can generally ensure my knights survive whatever bombardment befalls them until those dreads kill the offending vehicle. I've found them to kill vehicles far more reliably than your standard TLLC/ML dread thanks to that melta, and if all else fails, the DCCW. Sure I'm at point blank, sure I'm in counter melta range, but those problems can be negated through smart deployment, movement, mutual support from the PAGK and liberal use of running and smoke launchers.
I don't use drop pods with 'em, as that's just unfluffy. I would like the option of teleporting them though, like the DOW mod. There's not much difference between teleporting a squad of ten terminators and a single Dreadnought, is there?
But, in all matters of ease of use, points to effectiveness, etc, I'd rate them as follows.
1. TLLC/ML- Great staple, but doesn't carry enough utility for me to love them. Something of a necessity though and gets the job done.
2. Seraphim- These women are hot. Hell, you don't even need melta-bombs nowadays! Krak grenades will usually do it. Thus, I usually give them Inferno pistols for those hard nuts.
3. Land Raider- With the PoTMS, it's become far more viable. The only thing holding it back is its high price, already a premium in DH.
4. Storm Troopers- Suicide bombers for the win. Too bad their survival rate is close to zero. Good for when you absolutely, positively must have something die. Don't expect them to get another go at it though.
5. Guardsmen- Not my cup of tea, but to each his own. Cheap, plentiful and relatively survivable. Kind of a shame they're so stationary. Besides, average BS is average BS.
6. MM/DCCW- My beloved, stuck down at rank 6. Hard to use, particularly in low terrain boards. But, when you want it dead, look no further.
7. Meltabombs on Justicars- Only if you've got spare points. Besides, most things will die to NFW. Anything else (Monolith, Crusaders, Redeemers) seem a bit too dangerous to be that close.
8. Chainfist- Only if you've got the spare points. Plenty of better things I can think of.
9. TH/SS- Meh. If you've got nothing better for your terminators to be doing, sure. Better spent on MCs though.
10. Hammerhand- Not worth it for anti-tank. I'm pretty sure there are better things to hit. In fact, I can think of many better things for my GM/BC to be doing.
As always, use your anti-tank in multiples of similar type to ensure that they survive to kill more things. One won't cut it unless you're playing a small game, two anti-tank units is pushing it, three is usually a good number, four is a bit over board. You probably won't ever need five or more anti-tank units unless it Apocalypse or something.
Well, that's just my two kidneys.
Love, Sayomi Akimoto.