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  1. #1
    Member sgtinvincible's Avatar
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    Deathwing: a viable army?

    So, I usually play Chaos, but I have recently been giving some thought to putting together another army. Dark Angels have always been my favorite marine fluff (since before 3rd edition) but given their current inferiority complex, I would like to gather info on their sublists. Does anyone have experience playing a Deathwing army? Is it viable? It looks like it would be fun against anything that wasn't a horde army, but I'm not convinced if it's worth the time and money.

    Thanks for your thoughts!

    -Sarge

    Lord Busey see's all.

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  3. #2
    The Biker Marine SmokWawelski's Avatar
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    With a good selection of models you could play both Deathwing and Chapter Marines. Of course there would be the issue of colors, but I am sure that something could be done to make this a viable option...

    Deathwing only - If you want to say create a 1K list, proxy it and then build JUST THOSE models, with the AoBR deals you could load on cheap Terminators easily and there would not be a lot of models to paint either...

  4. #3
    Senior Member crazyrpger's Avatar
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    I have to say, with the right load out, I've seen Deathwing do very well, in the hands of a capable player. The fearlessness means that, aside from close combat, you'll never see your termies die from failing leadership. Toss in some heavy armor (landraider, vindicator and a few dreads) and you can really do some damage. Trust me, even horde lists can fall victim to Deathwing. I took my horde orks to 'ard Boyz and had a Deathwing player wrestle a minor victory out of me. He probably had less than a forth of my 200 models, yet he managed to do very well. It's all about scenario, placement and focusing fire.

    As the previous poster said, Black Reach has made a marine army much cheaper. Ebay will get you 5 termies for $15 instead of $50. Problem is, with Deathwing, you're still gonna want some special weapons and assault styled termies, too.

    Or, you can just pick up a few Black Reach boxes and get some other termies. That way, you'd have enough marines to do other things with, and you can use the spare heavy weapon/close combat weapon arms from the regular termies to round out your one piece Black Reach ones.
    I'm trying to catalog every song with a reference to yetis or Sasquatch. Please help.

  5. #4
    Torn ACL FTL ==Me=='s Avatar
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    DW are nice, but Codex Marines can do virtually the same thing for cheaper and better. A few min Scout Squads with camo cloaks for holding objectives or Podding Tacticals and you can go nuts with superior TH/SS Termies, Cyclones, and cheaper everything. Lysander reps Belial well enough and with the MotF you can field Dreads aplenty.

    I say this having 1500 points of DW gathering dust along with the rest of ==My== Dark Angels, sad but true.
    Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com

  6. #5
    The Biker Marine SmokWawelski's Avatar
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    DW has some rules that Codex Marines cannot duplicate...

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    Torn ACL FTL ==Me=='s Avatar
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    Apothecaries, Scoring, and Fearless. SM get better scoring units, cheaper and better Terminators, and don't have to put up with Fearless.
    Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com

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    The Biker Marine SmokWawelski's Avatar
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    It has to be more than than 3 items to justify a whole separate Dex, no?

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    Torn ACL FTL ==Me=='s Avatar
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    You'd think so, I guess if you count Belial, inferior cyclones and storm shields, inferior Land Raiders, inflexible squad sizes, reliance of RW (who are also overpriced and Fearless, yippee) that adds up to a whole Codex.
    Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com

  10. #9
    Senior Member stayscrunchyinmilk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ==Me== View Post
    DW are nice, but Codex Marines can do virtually the same thing for cheaper and better. A few min Scout Squads with camo cloaks for holding objectives or Podding Tacticals and you can go nuts with superior TH/SS Termies, Cyclones, and cheaper everything. Lysander reps Belial well enough and with the MotF you can field Dreads aplenty.
    I say this having 1500 points of DW gathering dust along with the rest of ==My== Dark Angels, sad but true.
    However Deathwing are troop, (If you take Belial) and score. Normal marines just can't do that. Lysander reps belial, sure. but costs alot more.
    Deathwing don't have a MOTF. But how were you going to fit a command, two troop and more than 3 dreads in a list anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokWawelski View Post
    DW has some rules that Codex Marines cannot duplicate...
    They are as follows:
    1) Deathwing can score. (If you take Belial)
    2) Smoke Launchers downgrade to glancing hits.
    3) You can have a standard/apothecary in a terminator squad (Apothecary = Awsome)
    4) You can have a standard/apothecary in a bike squad (who are now totally obsolete)
    5) Your chaplains are better
    6) Your deathwing can mix & match weapons (The storm sheild and the cyclone launcher are inferior - a worse save / two missiles vs one missile + a storm bolter though)

    Quote Originally Posted by ==Me== View Post
    Apothecaries, Scoring, and Fearless. SM get better scoring units, cheaper and better Terminators, and don't have to put up with Fearless.
    It is true in one light. If your list will have more tac squads than terminators, take standard marines. If your list would have terminators instead of tac squads, Deathwing are viable - although niche.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokWawelski View Post
    It has to be more than than 3 items to justify a whole separate Dex, no?
    The only real point is scoring Terminators. If that's what you want, that's your list.

    Quote Originally Posted by ==Me== View Post
    You'd think so, I guess if you count Belial, inferior cyclones and storm shields, inferior Land Raiders, inflexible squad sizes, reliance of RW (who are also overpriced and Fearless, yippee) that adds up to a whole Codex.
    Deathwing do have inferior storm sheilds and cyclones. You can however mix and match weapons (Heavy Flamer in the assault squad? stop complaining. The rest should have claws anyway) Cyclones are a bad choice in either dex.

    Belial? It's true, he is not as good as Lysander. However, he's a cheap, cheap hq that allows you to do the list, and his equipment is good (don't give him the sword though, it's terrible) He also comes with rites of battle - you're all LD10.

    The land raiders suck a bit. less capacity, a poor BS machine spirit and no prometheus option. Shame, but it could be worse. You don't really want more than one anyway, unless being silly.

    Squad sizes? well, I don't cry about that - your 5 man squads can take a special, wheras vanilla marines can't. If doing more than 5 take ten to allow the heavy. It's like not having the option to have minesweepers, and i wouldn't lose sleep over it, chuck in the points elsewhere.

    Reliance on RW? not really, It'd be nice to have accurate teleporting, but it's only 1/3 chance of death now (compared to automatic) and running helps those slight deviations. Ravenwing are not required.

    Ravenwing.
    Ah, how noble and wonderful the idea was. they were cool. They were class.
    They are now utterly, utterly superceded in all aspects by the current marine bikers. - Sammael is as expensive as the superior white scars bloke, or just shove any old vanilla commander on a bike for half the cost and take bikes as troops. those bikes themselves are cheaper, and the units more flexible in the vanilla dex, attack bikes are cheaper can be bought on their own, and vanilla speeders are 50% off in comparison.

    You do get standards and apothecaries in your scoring ravenwing squad, but that's in comparison hideously expensive. why have a extra attack when you can double the amount of bikes? why ignore the first failed save when you can just buy another squad?

    However, on page (27, bottom right hand corner, In the ravenwing entry) it does state that lanspeeders are scoring units - in black and white rules as written. But, some disagree - That's an argument for another day. (RAW it scores. RAI, it doesn't mean that. The real argument goes over whether a codex overrides scoring restrictions - as it doesn't say they do so in the main rule book unlike smoke launchers. I just refuse to pay the 101 odd points for a lanspeeder, scoring or not.)

    Other niggles (other than just general costs being on average about 10% higher):

    Whirlwind. dark angels have to choose the misile at the beginning of a game, marines choose at the beginning of a turn. We should be gratefull it's the same cost, really.

    Devastators - No signum. Boo.

    Scouts - A elite slot, so don't score. Nice WS and Bs, poor equipment. In short, they sucked in 4th and are just masochistic in 5th.

    Librarians. Oh, the shame. If you just ignored the psychic powers, which make me want to spit on the page every time I read them in disgust, there's the stat line to infuriate me more. 121 odd points for a LD9 psychic hood? Can we make it LD10 and give the opponent a extra free lash, please? - You would actually be better off statistically (Vs 2 lashes in the opponents army on LD10 models).
    I feel dirty every time I read that statline. Like Andy Hoare reached out the book and did something nasty. Oh wait, he did, but he didn't have to come out of the book.

    the characters and their "uber special cool weapons"
    However nice the fluff is they are S4 power weapons, and S6 power / relic blades are frankly better. 4+ to wound or 2+ to wound? 6 to glance or 4's? You decide.

    and no land speeder scout waggon / uber cannon / flaming land raiders / ultra vetran squads etc etc.

    In conclusion - If you like scoring terminators this is your army. If scoring terminators isn't your core plan, don't. That's all Dark Angels are good for now.

    So sayeth the 4k point full battle company with extras + a 1.75k Ravenwing and 2.5k Deathwing army owner, that are all painted, and each and every single one of the 200+ troops, bikes and tanks has not just the dark angels symbol, but raised / brassed etched / Greenstuffed / converted at least twice on them.
    I considered giving up 40k as i felt so sh@t on, and stopped playing 40k for 3 months. I no longer feel any loyalty to GW whatsoever, and i did naively have some trust in them, possibly leftover from the 90's or just idealism. The day they drop specialist games is the day I totally quit. (and probably go to warmachine / FOW ccg's)

  11. #10
    Member sgtinvincible's Avatar
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    Wow....

    Just...wow...

    I had no idea that the once fierce DA were so handicapped in comparison with the new Codex Marines. I mean, I knew that the new marines were pretty ridiculous, but when it's layed out like, that all I can do is really wince. I mean...that just burns.

    I suppose that I will leave DA alone, until such time that a new codex is published for them. Though of course, isn't the new DA codex fairly new? Like 2006 or so? *shakes head*

    Anyway, I really feel for the DA players and my full condolences go out to you. I guess, you can just hope that the new DA codex, whenever that may be, will be full of the same kind of power creep that contributed to making DA obsolete.

    *Big group hug to the DA players*
    Last edited by sgtinvincible; December 16th, 2008 at 18:55.
    Lord Busey see's all.

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