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I just wanted to know if people believe in mathhammer. If you do or dont just vote and post why you voted the way you did.
Mathhammer is using dice averages to determine how useful a unit is when it shoots or assaults.(please give an example if you can explain it better)
Last edited by CKO; January 23rd, 2009 at 05:57.
i voted no and this is why. i have had bad and good days. sometimes even great days. let me tell you a story.
i had a 10 man armored fist squad. 1 had a Rocket launcher, 1 had a grenade launcher, 7 las guns and 1 las pistol. then i use my chimera with multi-laser and its heavy stubber. in one shooting attack i killed of 7 space marine termies. i didnt get to shoot the las pistol but i got to shoot everything else. i got a total of 16 shots in i hit with all but 2. that makes 14 hits. out of that i got 14 wounds. yes all of the shots wounded some one. so do the math.
if i was lucky i would and should have only kill 2 termies at most. they rolled 7 ones. i killed them all, and in the end i still had 3-4 wounds that went nowhere. so that math of warhammer 40k is a myth. at most it is a rule of thumb but its not a very good one. i can tell of other time that didnt work with the math but that is my favorite one.
I am an Indestructible master of War.
No i do not believe in "mathhammer" only in the Dice god of chaos, all hail Ahedron. but seriously i have never see mathhamer be accurate on a regualr basis.
"stupid overtime zombie virus."
"I'm glad that worked. Those would have been horrible last words."
Mathammering, while being a powerful tool to help determine some basic ideas, is actually a distraction and at best, in game, unreliable. There's no way to account for the luck of the dice (because yes, some people roll more 1s than others) and no way to account for creative use and tactics of a unit.
Mathammer, a its best, is a general idea or guideline, not the end of the matter.
"Speed is life! You go slow, you die!"
-Sgt. Unther, Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries
I voted yes.
And here is why: In a game of warhammer you're never sure of anything. You can always roll ten '1's when you need to make you're save for you're termies. Or trow ten '6' when you need to wound a 'fex. And this game is mostly about luck (and good tactics )
So the only thing we can do is aks ourself before the game: how would this unit do on a regular basis in my games of warhammer. And you have math to calculate that. This is probably not the best defence for mathhammer, so I will need somebody to back me up on this!
I voted yes, but only as it's a tool:
It is not something to even contemplate in a game (If you're wondering about two options to kill something, It should be clear - even if you reckon they've got the same odds, which one will be more useful elsewhere? which one is more of a hinderance to my opponent? Psycologically, which one would be better to get my opponents attention with etc etc)
For a tool when considering units (with roles in mind) It's not too shabby.
* It is not however that accurate, it is a indicator. It is better to then contemplate (working out is very laborious) the % varience of a dice roll
Varience is the odds of getting variety on a dice roll - with mathammer the dice rolled comes up as 1,2,3,4,5,6 for every six dice, with no leeway. The most accurate way of portraying the results, so they are clear is by %, however real life doesn't work this way, games will not reflect this (unless exeptionally abnormal, of course.)
Now, I'm not going to write all about it, as it would be reams of maths (mostly repetitive) and the symbols required don't come out in this text box (for the true equations if i was to go that deep.), nor can i do a exel spreadsheet. Or, I can't be bothered. (To be fair I saw a exellent attempt about 6 months ago on LO titled "Advanced Mathammer II" or something similar. rep the guy if you read it as it's very good, and he put alot of effort in)
In a very short, and simple terms: Look at your mathammer (standard % as known by many). Then look at how many dice rolls are required - The more dice being rolled (Per Step calculated), the more accurate your results are likely to be. (for the final %)
Like the Ork Mob - A twenty strong mob blazing away will give a more consistant result, than say a ten man marine squad. I'll try a brief explanation:
Now to get to that total we assumed the dice are consistantly even - they aren't. A dice is just as likely to roll a 6 as it is a 1 every time it is rolled.
Some people go into casino's not beleiving this, and thinking they have picked up a "trick" to help them win. they'll wait by the roulette table until the red or black comes up six/seven times in a row, then place money on the opposite colour, as they "know" it will come up next. It still has the same odds. (Just less than 50%, due to the green). Even worse, they will then put double the money on the result not shown so far, if they don't win.
This is because they, like basic mathhammer are not considering the equation correctly to the results, I.E.:
Odds of rolling a six on a dice = 1/6.
Odds of rolling a six on a dice = 1/6
Odds of rolling a six on a dice = 1/6
Odds of rolling a six on a dice three times in a row:
1/6, x 1/6, x 1/6 = 1/216 (Or, 0.46% by basic mathammer percentage)
- They are incorrectly applying equation 2) to the result.
A roulette table just doesn't care what the previous result was, It is not part of a "chain" that stops e.g. If the example "6" didn't come up. It doesn't care. They have just slightly less than 50% chance (due to the green) of winning exactly double their money.
- That small percentage is absolutely vital.
Trying to explain the small % difference, and how it applies in "chains" (Like to hit, wound, save etc. That is a chain.)
Let's say two armies, each with 100 men are shooting at one another (in turns), and kill exactly 10% per volley.
Army A = 100 (Shoots)
Army B = 100
Army B less 10.
Army A = 100
Army B = 90 (Shoots)
Army A less 9.
Army A = 91 (Shoots)
Army B = 90
Army B less 9.
Army A = 91
Army B = 81 (Shoots)
Army A less 8.
Army A = 83 (Shoots)
Army B = 81
Army B less 8.
Army A = 83
Army B = 73 (Shoots)
Army A less 7.
Army A = 76 (Shoots)
Army B = 73
Army B less 8.
Army A = 76
Army B = 65 (Shoots)
Army A less 7.
Army A = 69 (Shoots)
Army B = 65
Army B less 7.
etc etc, I hope you beleive me, Until
Army B has just shot Army A. (Round complete)
Army A = 26 (About to shoot)
Army B = 5
Army B will just be pounded into dust.
The difference, from the beginning was only one man, out of a hundred in the first step - so only 1%, right? However It results in a 26% - 0% win.
This is a example of chain events, with the smallest difference coming to a very different result than imagined. The resulting number on the table isn't a chain. Your betting, the more times you bet, Is. (Chain finishes when bank balance = 0)
Like playing on a roulette table with multiple bets - It's not a even battle - Your chances of winning are not even, in the table's favour, and the odds of losing aren't in your favour either.
The roulette table doesn't care what it turns up, or conform to any statistic. You are trying to. The exchange isn't favourable. (37 no's on a UK table)
1 = Green
18 = Black
18 = Red.
Odds of winning Black / Red = 18 out of 37, or 48.64%. I showed you above how a 1% difference worked out above, in the exchange, but this is even worse:
Odds of them winning = 19 out of 37, or 51.36%
The difference is 2.72% for the first bet. the more bets you place, the more money you'll lose.
The most reliable way of betting is a one off bet, on black / red to double your money. And it's not favourable.
Anyway. You can make your army efficiently by using maths.
But you are turning up to play a game. We're all competitive, but let's look at things in perspective.
To be tailored further....
(To be finished later)
Last edited by stayscrunchyinmilk; January 23rd, 2009 at 13:21.
Adeptus Mechanicus Marines: http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post1655065
Im with stayscrunchy on this one.
I used mathhammer to work out kills per point for all wepaons and applied this knowledge to my tactics. Now when people say it is useless and never works citing handfuls of sixes well have a look next time you play a game.
Most of the time if I need 4+ rolling a handful of dice I get pretty much half, the more dice you roll the more it evens out. It is true and proven mathematically and also physically. As an indicator yes it is good but it isnt the end product it is a part of the greater whole.
For example most people go ooo look lascannon yeah cool hang on a little mathammer yup it freams infantry that is amazing. and then they stop there, they miss several essentials
1. how much does it cost (more than twice a cheap heavy anti infantry weapon)
2. how does it compare to other weapons at doing that job?
3. do I have enough space in my army for them and everything else?
4. what is the best thing for me to fire it at?
Simply put most know to shoot lascannons at tanks and heavy bolters at infantry because well thats what they do best, mathammer simply expresses this mathematicaly showing exactly how much better it is on average.
Yes the dice can roll anything at the end of the day but a little bit of planning can go a very long way.
Hope that helps
Interesting question. I had this debate with mynameisgrax and other (great guys and very good) mathhammerers.
Disclaimer: my post below pretty much fuses mathhammer and theoryhammer. I actually have far more respect for mathhammer than theoryhammer, but since they're generally used in conjunction, I used that assumption.
Mathhammering is useful when establishing pre-game strategies and even building army lists. It's also useful, in a simplified form, to determine whether the move you have in mind is a good idea or not (should my assault marines charge the terminators).
However, not only does it not account for flukes (and ork rokkit launcher salvo disabling a land raider, for example), but even worse, it leads to false assumptions.
For example, I always give my slugga boyz heavy weapons. Most people on the boards say they don't. Why? They say this this unit will be running towards the enemy, connecting on turn 2 or 3. Great, but what if they're facing a mechanized army? What if the enemy uses a refused flank? What if they're the only unit that can hold the objective? In all those cases, the rokkit launchers will be useful. But Mathhammer did not account for the "reality" of the battlefield, only for the potential results of the unit getting in CC with another one.
"Politics is the womb in which war develops"
I will never believe in mathhammer, you can spend your entire life doing it, but every single time you play a game your dice will prove all your math wrong time and time again.
I've had entire 10 man guard units rapid fire and miss every single shot, 20 misses, I've had times that 1 guardsmen is able to kill 2 terminators, 1 lasgun killing 2 2+ saves..now according to maths, thats close enough to impossible (not completely, but both examples are close enough) yet they happen.
I've known players who have spent hours refining army lists using mathhammer, trying to predict what will happen with what units, and have never won a game EVER.
so whats the point?, just roll the bloody dice, leave it to luck and play like normal people.
I also find most (not all before you sweeping statement addicts pop up, most does not equal ALL, you should know that) mathhammer users to be big headed and ignorant, and believe everyone should easily understand them, and if you don't your just plain stupid compared to there superiorority, there another reason I hate mathhammer.
Yes, it can be useful in working out which weapon loadouts or whathaveyou have the edge when it isnt readily apparent but it can (and often is) be taken a bit too far - look in the Tau forums at a couple of the older Crisis Suit weapons threads for examples of overdong the maths.
But at the end of the day probabilities are only ever that - probabilities, nothing is ever certain and tactics will go a lot further than just assuming that because the numbers are on your side you will win.
The name refers to facial hair, not playing style.Originally Posted by A news vendor's stand, London, June 1940